Councils urged to redesign speed bumps to cut pollution

[AndyB]

Sinusoidal should have been the default from the beginning.

Most of the slow-stop-accelerate business is due to driver perceptions that that is what they need to do to navigate them safely, made worse by those awful rubber monstrosities that are thankfully illegal on the public road.

If we can educate drivers that they will make better progress if they don't try to speed up to 30mph between ramps before slowing down to 5mph to go over them (or worse) and that a steady 20 with easing off at the newest ramps before gently accelerating over them will save a lot of time, that will go a very long way towards improving air quality.

[roadrunner]

Unfortunately though, there are bumps that cannot be taken at 20MPH and some on the same stretch of roads that are not the same, so three out of four bumps might be comfortable at 20MPH and the 4th will rattle your teeth out and unfortunately, you cannot tell be looking, which ones are the nasty ones.

[M4 Cardiff]

Is there actually any official design standard for humps other than the regulations within The Highways (Road Humps) Regulations 1999?

Nature, dimensions and location of road humps
4.
—(1) Subject to regulation 7, no road hump shall be constructed or maintained in a highway
unless–
(a) each face of it across the carriageway of the highway in which it is constructed is at right
angles to an imaginary line along the centre of that carriageway;
(b) it has a minimum length of 900 millimetres measured parallel to an imaginary line along
the centre of that carriageway from the point where one face meets the surface of that
carriageway to the point where the other face meets the surface of that carriageway;
(c) the highest point on it is not less than 25 millimetres nor more than 100 millimetres
higher than an imaginary line parallel to the centre line of that carriageway connecting
the surface of that carriageway on one side of the road hump to the surface of that
carriageway on the other side of the road hump and passing vertically below that point;
and,
(d) no vertical face of any material forming part of that road hump exceeds 6 millimetres
measured vertically from top to bottom of that face.

[roadrunner]

We are starting to get the preformed rubber humps springing up around our way now. Unfortuantely, even these aren't standard and some in Broseley were removed after about a year and many, many complaints.

[A9NWIL]

Make roads in residential areas wave-y.

Hear me out.

If you take them at the normal pace, you'll barely notice the waves. However, if you've got a bit of a shifty on, you'll make yourself sick, forcing you to slow down (or stop, if it's that bad). You'd soon learn and you wouldn't do it again!

No this is dangerous! The road I live on where it joins the main road there is these chicanes one on each side, the main road is so narrow turning left onto it forces you into the middle of the road. Thankfully vehicles are going slower on the main road, likely due to speed humps again, but it can slow all the traffic down. It can be hard to make a clean turn especially in a larger vehicle.

I believe that what is better is roads with no traffic calming, changing speed limits to metric so that a 40Km (25MPH) limit can be brought in on places that 20MPH is currently used and having some kind of device that checks for people doing say 10Km over the limit in hot spots for people racing. Thats not speed cameras, but a device that alerts coppers to come and check out what is going on.

[Nwallace]

A big help to reducing pollution in towns and cities would be to better sync traffic lights so that you're not driving from red to red. I'm looking at you, Dundee.

I'm still practicing the Bridge west route; coming off it seems to be entirely down to whether anything is on the ring road at the first lights, the 2nd set seem to just want to slow you down and the 3rd set if it's clear seem to need to be crawled at around 15mph to get them green before you get there.

Heading onto the bridge from town, once you're on the 1st set again 15mph seems to be about right to get a green light on approach.

Those are obviously for when they're working on the sensors rather than fixed timings.

Dundee's biggest traffic problem (According to me) is the East Port Roundabout Circle, where traffic from the Forfar road that refuses to follow the signs, and anyone working in Stobie or on the Cleppy meet all the traffic on the Inner Ring, it's a case of boot it into any gap you see to get onto the inner ring from the Ski Jump.

Normally, I'm going to the same parts of the city whenever I visit so I come off the Tay Bridge, ...

Dundee is a city which welcomes everyone in the world (cough except fifers cough)

I think Winston Churchill's ghost would get a hard time of it.

Maybe that's the answer, install pot holes.

Fife Council is way ahead of you on that one.

At the current rate I'm going to be billing them for bike tyres...
3 sliced sidewalls this year, at 40 Euro a pop (with significant discount applied by bigger shops who can buy in bulk, €80 if paying RRP)

[A9NWIL]

There is a type of sinusoidal road humps that provide a smoother transition than normal round-top ones and so make it easier to maintain a steady speed. One street near me has them, but they don't seem to be very common. Possibly because creating annoyance and discomfort is often the prime objective of those who install humps

Probably because those that are on the council who design our roads aren't drivers! It should be a pre-requisite that if you design roads you should have a driving licence as part of your qualifications for the job!

[A9NWIL]

Also says there should be more 20mph speed limits, because you know, they're so effective.

I found this quiet bizarre given their stated aim is to reduce pollution.

Vehicles emit lowest pollution when running in the highest gear they can. For most cars 20 requires a lower gear than 30 and thus causes them to emit more pollution.

Does not inspire confident in the report.

Very interesting! That needs a lot of press coverage then councils and environmentalists will be wanting higher speeds, 25MPH or 40Km/h would do it!

[Glom]

, changing speed limits to metric

Yes exactly.

What else were we talking about?

(with glowing hearts, we see thee rise, the true north strong and free)

[kit]

Possibly because creating annoyance and discomfort is often the prime objective of those who install humps

Probably because those that are on the council who design our roads aren't drivers! It should be a pre-requisite that if you design roads you should have a driving licence as part of your qualifications for the job!

That would be a bit of a pointless prerequisite, roads are hardly a complicated thing to design compared to hospitals or prisons and we don't require people to have had a brush with death or time inside to design those.

The best solution IMO would be to go back to the Department for Transport getting proper engineers to design and document standards and to compel councils wanting to vary them to seek special authorisation. Then any non-compliant design can be replaced at the LA's cost or a proportion of funding removed.

That all said I think the highways engineers without driving licences are somewhat mythical, I've never seen proof it's beyond a few here and there despite common wisdom that none have a licence. I'm quite able to believe none of them have ever cycled though.

[A9NWIL]

, changing speed limits to metric

Yes exactly.

What else were we talking about?

(with glowing hearts, we see thee rise, the true north strong and free)

A speed of 25MPH or 40Km/h is better than having a 20MPH zone or speed limit on 90+% of roads that currently have them.
Having a speed limit with a 5 at the end isnt the best of ideas so switching to metric seems like a good option.
With metric speed limits you can have 30Km/h which is very close to 20MPH, 40Km/h which is the same as 25MPH, 50Km/h which is just above 30MPH, 60Km/h which is about 37MPH, 70Km/h which is close to about 43MPH.
Some roads could then have their 40MPH and 50MPH reviewed, in fact all roads 50MPH and lower could be reviewed with better limits.
Roads above 50MPH including NSL roads could then fall into 4 categories: single carriageway roads that would be good at 90Km/h (just below 60MPH), dual carriageways that arent so good quality would work at 100Km/h, better quality dual carriageways and lower grade motorways 110Km/h and finally good motorways at 120Km/h.
I think most drivers would be happy with this in reality.
I would also set up a minimum speed limit for motorways of 70Km/h unless a vehicle is in trouble or there is a traffic jam or variable speed limits.

[A9NWIL]

Possibly because creating annoyance and discomfort is often the prime objective of those who install humps

Probably because those that are on the council who design our roads aren't drivers! It should be a pre-requisite that if you design roads you should have a driving licence as part of your qualifications for the job!

That would be a bit of a pointless prerequisite, roads are hardly a complicated thing to design compared to hospitals or prisons and we don't require people to have had a brush with death or time inside to design those.

The best solution IMO would be to go back to the Department for Transport getting proper engineers to design and document standards and to compel councils wanting to vary them to seek special authorisation. Then any non-compliant design can be replaced at the LA's cost or a proportion of funding removed.

That all said I think the highways engineers without driving licences are somewhat mythical, I've never seen proof it's beyond a few here and there despite common wisdom that none have a licence. I'm quite able to believe none of them have ever cycled though.

Designing hospitals or prisons is just laying out a building less problematic than roads unless say there isnt enough room in a hospital for beds to be taken from room to room, or prisoners could access areas they shouldnt, but thats easier to get right than roads!

For roads you dont understand why they are the way they are until you drive them, I know I didnt and I learned to drive a lot later in life than a lot of people do, so I have seen both sides!
It takes a driver to realise certain things, yes if the councils sent their road designs through the DoT for approval, then it may well have the same effect, as they should in theory know what they are doing when it comes to roads! But Even they get it wrong!
Re cycling I agree there I have cycled in the past, thankfully my town is ok for cycling, but other places may not be. Although diving a car I now find it annoying when I cant pass a cyclist easily, which again is a road design issue. EG dangerous or impossible to actually overtake a cyclist!

[Bryn666]

That all said I think the highways engineers without driving licences are somewhat mythical, I've never seen proof it's beyond a few here and there despite common wisdom that none have a licence. I'm quite able to believe none of them have ever cycled though.

I have had a line manager who not only cycles but also enters many road races. I've also worked with a principal engineer who commutes to work by bike daily.

It isn't engineers who have an issue with cycle facilities, it's budget holders who think that it's unpopular to provide for them so give us meagre sums to work with.

I've never once designed any cycle facility that requires you to dismount. If I can't provide a facility without the need to dismount then I would recommend to a client they don't bother.

As for speed humps... they're horrible things but whilst people want them on their roads they will continue their spread. Councils lack the money to proactively install the damn things.

[jackal]

I'm sure I'll get shot down for this, but how about replacing bumps with cameras? Especially average speed to discourage accelerate+brake. The lesser of two evils?

[A9NWIL]

I'm sure I'll get shot down for this, but how about replacing bumps with cameras? Especially average speed to discourage accelerate+brake. The lesser of two evils?

Or a security camera to a control center, that if the operators spot a definite speeding offence (eg its obvious to see against other traffic), they hand the registration number to the police along with a copy of the footage.
The fines would pay for the control center and everyone should be happy.

[PeterA5145]

I'm sure I'll get shot down for this, but how about replacing bumps with cameras? Especially average speed to discourage accelerate+brake. The lesser of two evils?

Or a security camera to a control center, that if the operators spot a definite speeding offence (eg its obvious to see against other traffic), they hand the registration number to the police along with a copy of the footage.
The fines would pay for the control center and everyone should be happy.

Yeah, let's put a chip in everyone's skull, and as soon as they do anything "wrong" they're flagged up to Stasi HQ. Problem solved

[A9NWIL]

I'm sure I'll get shot down for this, but how about replacing bumps with cameras? Especially average speed to discourage accelerate+brake. The lesser of two evils?

Or a security camera to a control center, that if the operators spot a definite speeding offence (eg its obvious to see against other traffic), they hand the registration number to the police along with a copy of the footage.
The fines would pay for the control center and everyone should be happy.

Yeah, let's put a chip in everyone's skull, and as soon as they do anything "wrong" they're flagged up to Stasi HQ. Problem solved

No this would only catch blatant bad drivers, those that just do a few over the limit shouldnt get caught, it would all be by eye no auto pickup.

[rhyds]

No this would only catch blatant bad drivers, those that just do a few over the limit shouldnt get caught, it would all be by eye no auto pickup.

If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear....

[kit]

Or a security camera to a control center, that if the operators spot a definite speeding offence (eg its obvious to see against other traffic), they hand the registration number to the police along with a copy of the footage.
The fines would pay for the control center and everyone should be happy.

Yeah, let's put a chip in everyone's skull, and as soon as they do anything "wrong" they're flagged up to Stasi HQ. Problem solved

No this would only catch blatant bad drivers, those that just do a few over the limit shouldnt get caught, it would all be by eye no auto pickup.

The way speed measurement devices work in the UK is that they have to be type approved by the Home Office. Once they have this any evidence produced by them is assumed to be correct.

If you started using random cameras any prosecutor would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that any measurement taken by photogrammetry. That's before you get to the fact that it would be a very tedious job and quite 1984-ish to watch CCTV cameras all the time in case someone steps out of line.

tl;dr it would be much better to use existing cameras with greater leniency if it was greater leniency you wanted. Although assuming we're talking about urban areas 24mph and 35mph seem quite acceptable thresholds to me.

[A9NWIL]

Yeah, let's put a chip in everyone's skull, and as soon as they do anything "wrong" they're flagged up to Stasi HQ. Problem solved

No this would only catch blatant bad drivers, those that just do a few over the limit shouldnt get caught, it would all be by eye no auto pickup.

The way speed measurement devices work in the UK is that they have to be type approved by the Home Office. Once they have this any evidence produced by them is assumed to be correct.

If you started using random cameras any prosecutor would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that any measurement taken by photogrammetry. That's before you get to the fact that it would be a very tedious job and quite 1984-ish to watch CCTV cameras all the time in case someone steps out of line.

tl;dr it would be much better to use existing cameras with greater leniency if it was greater leniency you wanted. Although assuming we're talking about urban areas 24mph and 35mph seem quite acceptable thresholds to me.

Yes I see your point existing speed cameras are likely the way to do it, 24MPH and 35MPH seem like good figures, most drivers would try and keep below anyway, but it happens to the best of us that we can be a little over at times.

Then throw out traffic calming eg speed humps, narrowing and chicanes ect and make it mandatory for councils to keep roads in good repair.