Botched Roadsigns

[Stevie D]

Some chump who doesn't understand the difference between signs before the junction and signs at the junction ... not to mention the stupidity of burying the latter sign so far back from the road that it's vanishing into the undergrowth...

And ... which airport are you going to? Coming down the M18 towards Doncaster, when an unnamed airport is signposted (we'll gloss over the fact that the sign incorrectly indicates that all lanes continue straight ahead, you'll find out soon enough when you're boxed into the inside lane and going the wrong way), you might assume it to be Robin Hood, as that is far and away the nearest and largest one. But no, follow that sign and you're on route to Humberside, 15 miles further away and with less than a third of the traffic. For Robin Hood, you want to continue down the M18 to J3 and then pick up the new link road, but there are no signs to tell you this.

[Stevie D]

And ... which airport are you going to?

Right, I got myself so annoyed by that that I've written to HE complaining about that one and the J3 fiasco. What do you reckon are my chances of the reply being a complete whitewash, as usual?

I would like to draw your attention to the appalling standard of junction signs on the M18.

The first example is southbound at junction 5. The sign in question is shown here: https://goo.gl/maps/1iDw8c8cEHo. This has two major problems with it:

• The sign indicates that all lanes continue through the junction, which is not the case. It is a lane-drop junction and lane 1 can only be used to turn off. It is crystal clear in "Know Your Traffic Signs" (page 79): "The number of lanes through the junction remains the same". It is simply not acceptable to have a sign that explicitly says all lanes continue through the junction when they do not.
• The sign shows an aeroplane symbol denoting a nearby airport, although there are no supplementary signs to say which airport it refers to. The nearest, and largest, airport to this location is Robin Hood, some 15 miles closer than Humberside and carrying three times as much traffic. But no, this sign is directing unsuspecting drivers to Humberside - for Robin Hood, drivers should continue on the M18.

I would like your assurance that this sign, which is both unhelpfully misleading and unlawfully incorrect, will be replaced promptly with a corrected sign that shows the lane-drop arrangements and names both Humberside Airport and Robin Hood Airport in the appropriate directions.

The second example is northbound at junction 3. The sign in question is shown here: https://goo.gl/maps/p39LhjqTUfH2. Although 'Robin Hood Airport' had been greyed out prior to the extension of the A6182, the new road has now opened and the grey has been removed. The destinations signed for straight ahead and the exit are absolutely fine ... but what on god's green earth was going on when this sign was put together? It is an atrocious mess, and horrifically confusing for drivers who have a very short time to figure out what the sign means and get in the appropriate lane, as the junction is close to the preceding lane-gain junction (hence why the second sign is ¼ mile instead of ½ mile). It is certainly not immediately obvious from the sign that the two panels for A6182 have the same destinations listed and are for the same exit turning, and this potential for confusion is exacerbated by the completely different shape and design. Why was this sanctioned when, again, a quick glance at "Know Your Traffic Signs" (bottom of page 81) shows an example of how that precise situation should be signed in a way that is immediately clear and obvious for drivers.

Again, I would like your assurance that this confusing and misleading gantry sign will be replaced promptly with a sign that accords with design guidance and will not confuse drivers.

As both of these installations are relatively recent, I trust that you will retain full records of the officials responsible for designing and authorising them, and that all such staff will be given appropriate training, competency or disciplinary procedures. These are not complicated situations that require complicated, non-standard solutions - these are straight out of the idiots' guide to road signs aimed at the general motoring public. There is no excuse for getting them wrong.

[Johnathan404]

Until the new link road opened very recently the signposted route to Robin Hood Airport Doncaster Sheffield was via M180 J1 and the A614. Are there not still signs at J1 directing Robin Hood traffic off?

The lane drop ambiguity is quite common across the motorway network. The sign is not telling you anything about the lanes, which is the problem. For example M3 J14 is signposted mainly with fork signs even though the road splits into two.

[kit]

Again, I would like your assurance that this confusing and misleading gantry sign will be replaced promptly with a sign that accords with design guidance and will not confuse drivers.

A fair complaint, the only feedback I would give is

- Best to quote TSGRD rather than Know your road signs IMO, makes you seem more knowledgeable.

- Best to stick to the facts rather than get into more emotive language (human nature you don't help as much if you a letter gets your back up).

- Finally, I always find it more productive to phrase it as a FOI request through a public site as they tend to be more worried about press picking it up on a slow news day (I have been contacted by local press before wanting to run a "God the council are useless" story from a FOI request for some terrible signage.

Well done for taking the initiative to complain though.

[Stevie D]

- Best to quote TSGRD rather than Know your road signs IMO, makes you seem more knowledgeable.

I would have liked to have done, but I was struggling to find definitive guidance in TSRGD that spelled it out. That may be part of the problem...

[kit]

I would have liked to have done, but I was struggling to find definitive guidance in TSRGD that spelled it out. That may be part of the problem...

IMHO it's very difficult to prove a negative with TSGRD. Best to point to the closest diagrams it doesn't conform with. In the end it's up to them to prove they were compliant with the law.

[Andy33gmail]

Surprise no left turn restriction https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.21469 ... 6656?hl=en (2nd entrance into Co-op)

Also dangerous from the perspective that a cyclist entering there could reasonably expect not to encounter an oncoming car ...

[djw1981]

Is it just my eyesight or does the black line on these 'NSL applies' signs look a bit thin?https://goo.gl/maps/WorvUdYxxPk

[Stellar Forces]

Looks like some idiot may have left caps lock on...

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.46955 ... 6656?hl=en

[Conekicker]

Some chump who doesn't understand the difference between signs before the junction and signs at the junction ... not to mention the stupidity of burying the latter sign so far back from the road that it's vanishing into the undergrowth...

Looks like an installation mistake to me, some dumpling putting the signs up in the wrong order.

And ... which airport are you going to? Coming down the M18 towards Doncaster, when an unnamed airport is signposted (we'll gloss over the fact that the sign incorrectly indicates that all lanes continue straight ahead, you'll find out soon enough when you're boxed into the inside lane and going the wrong way), you might assume it to be Robin Hood, as that is far and away the nearest and largest one. But no, follow that sign and you're on route to Humberside, 15 miles further away and with less than a third of the traffic. For Robin Hood, you want to continue down the M18 to J3 and then pick up the new link road, but there are no signs to tell you this.

Prior to this sign, there's a sign on the M62 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.67956 ... 6656?hl=en
Then as you turn onto the M180, you get this
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.59208 ... 6656?hl=en
then two of these
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.59224 ... 6656?hl=en
then on the exit slip
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.59203 ... 6656?hl=en

All put up when Robin Hood first opened 10-ish years ago and it was only going to be a short time until the link road from J3 got built. The airport didn't want to spend mega-dosh on what would be temporary signing, so this was the "short-term" compromise.

I've heard that when the new link was built, no one thought to look at signing further out than J3 on the M18 Southbound approach. What, if anything, is going to be done about it I'm unaware of. I suspect nothing as I don't recall hearing of anyone complaining about not being able to find Robin Hood due to the signing from that direction and the route via M180 J1 is still viable. Additionally I've no idea what it would cost to sort out the signing on that approach but it most definitely wouldn't be 10 bob and a pickled egg. Definitely a six figure sum though.

[qwertyK]

This sign towards the end of the Brentwood Bypass (A12) on the border with Essex and London labels the A1023 (old A12), as the A1025, a completely different road more than 10 miles away in Harlow...yet the next sign says "A1023".

And of course don't forget this sign in Abridge, also Essex, where it actually labels the A11 (see thread I posted)> Not sure if a mistake, or stupidity (the A11 in London is 12 miles away and the A11 in Cambridgeshire is over 30), or unless it is a remainder of when the A11 ran through Essex, and they couldn't be asked to change it. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.65029 ... !1e1?hl=en

[kit]

Additionally I've no idea what it would cost to sort out the signing on that approach but it most definitely wouldn't be 10 bob and a pickled egg. Definitely a six figure sum though.

Would the council not just be doing the work and then sending the invoice to Robin Hood Airport though? I assume like brown signs the "attraction" picks up the cost of signage - or is this only on opening/big changes?

[Conekicker]

Additionally I've no idea what it would cost to sort out the signing on that approach but it most definitely wouldn't be 10 bob and a pickled egg. Definitely a six figure sum though.

Would the council not just be doing the work and then sending the invoice to Robin Hood Airport though? I assume like brown signs the "attraction" picks up the cost of signage - or is this only on opening/big changes?

No, the airport would have to stump up the readies to Highways England first.

[kit]

No, the airport would have to stump up the readies to Highways England first.

Sorry HE you are right. So HE have no reason to not want to agree to the changes then? Six figures seems a lot to patch a few signs though, I'll do it for £50k cash

[Stevie D]

Additionally I've no idea what it would cost to sort out the signing on that approach but it most definitely wouldn't be 10 bob and a pickled egg. Definitely a six figure sum though.

Would the council not just be doing the work and then sending the invoice to Robin Hood Airport though? I assume like brown signs the "attraction" picks up the cost of signage - or is this only on opening/big changes?

The thing is that to do the job properly would require new signs. I don't think there would be enough room on the existing 1/2 mile and gore signs to patch in both Robin Hood ✈ and Humberside ✈. It might be cheaper to put up separate signs between the main exit signs to say "For Robin Hood ✈, follow M18. For Humberside ✈, follow M180" and then just patch over the existing ✈ symbol on the signs ... BUT as the 1 mile sign is incorrect and therefore must be replaced, it would make more sense to do all the signs properly.

[Owain]

I'm perplexed as to why every single sign on the A63 between the A61 and the M1 has massive blue panels behind most of the text, like this one. Surely "Selby A63" and "York (A64)" should have the green background?

Another Leeds oddity is the A660T shown here. I cannot remember the last time I saw a sign showing a number in the format A48(T), and even then the T was always shown within parentheses.

[Owain]

This is a dodgy one too. I drove past it today. The road indicated as (A57) on the green background is the A57, and the road indicated as (A58) is the A58.

[Stevie D]

I'm perplexed as to why every single sign on the A63 between the A61 and the M1 has massive blue panels behind most of the text, like this one. Surely "Selby A63" and "York (A64)" should have the green background?

Technically it should only be (M1) on the blue patch, you're right. But as there is no through route for non motorway traffic along A63 there towards York and Selby, I guess the full blue panels were used to indicate that the route leads inexorably to a motorway (barring a couple of trivial minor roads) so they don't want drivers followings signs for York/Selby but not wanting the motorway route to end up down at the M1 having to retrace their steps. So it's a practical bodge that makes sense in context.

[Owain]

I'm perplexed as to why every single sign on the A63 between the A61 and the M1 has massive blue panels behind most of the text, like this one. Surely "Selby A63" and "York (A64)" should have the green background?

Technically it should only be (M1) on the blue patch, you're right. But as there is no through route for non motorway traffic along A63 there towards York and Selby, I guess the full blue panels were used to indicate that the route leads inexorably to a motorway (barring a couple of trivial minor roads) so they don't want drivers followings signs for York/Selby but not wanting the motorway route to end up down at the M1 having to retrace their steps. So it's a practical bodge that makes sense in context.

Good explanation - it does make sense in that context.

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Yesterday I discovered this not a botched road sign, as such, but a clumsy match of traffic and road signals. The arrows on lane 1 show that you can use that lane either to turn left or to head straight on, but the traffic signals have a filter arrow which lights up while the main set of lights remain on red.

That seems a bit of a mis-match .... I was stuck behind a BMW X5 in lane 1 who was heading straight on; I wanted to turn left and the traffic lights said I could do so, but I couldn't because I was stuck behind a car that didn't want to.

[Bryn666]

What were you doing in my neck of the woods! I agree, that is the world's most pointless filter arrow.

The A673 needs two ahead lanes but there's a lot of demand for the A58. It needs land though.

Once upon a time the whole A673 from the M61 link to Bolton was marked as S4, this junction seems to have never changed.