Is this a car park or a road ?

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WHBM
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Is this a car park or a road ?

Post by WHBM »

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5463168 ... 384!8i8192

Signage is a P plate with "This is a Pay & Display car park". However, it also has one way street signage. It get used by left turning rat-runners avoiding the traffic signals, sometimes with extreme impatience of those who are parking.
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Re: Is this a car park or a road ?

Post by unrepentantfool »

WHBM wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 01:03 https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5463168 ... 384!8i8192

Signage is a P plate with "This is a Pay & Display car park". However, it also has one way street signage. It get used by left turning rat-runners avoiding the traffic signals, sometimes with extreme impatience of those who are parking.
I would argue it's a one way street with parking bays adjacent, so is a road, not a car park.
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Ruperts Trooper
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Re: Is this a car park or a road ?

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

It's a road with on-road pay & display parking
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KeithW
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Re: Is this a car park or a road ?

Post by KeithW »

Its a typical suburban London Road with parking for the shops, many were built in the late 1930's at the end of the boom in commuter lines, there are hundreds like it. Take these for starters.

Canons Park
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.60740 ... 384!8i8192
and
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.60586 ... 384!8i8192

I lived in the flat above the Hair Salon for a while in the 1980's

Kingsbury
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.58481 ... 384!8i8192

Queensbury
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.59474 ... 312!8i6656

Edgware
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.62099 ... 384!8i8192

Typically they use Pay and Display to stop people parking outside the shops all day and taking the tube to work. If you are a resident you can get a permit , alternatively they have a period such as 3 to 4 PM when parking is banned, any car found then is towed.
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RichardA35
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Re: Is this a car park or a road ?

Post by RichardA35 »

OK I'll try to bring an evidential basis to the argument rather than unfounded opinion, anecdote or history.
Looking at TSRGD and comparing to the GSV images, the signage appears to be in accordance with Schedule 4 - "Upright signs that control waiting, loading and parking along a road", so this would confirm it is still part of the highway with a controlled parking area rather than an off-street car park whch could be free of signage, lining and restrictions prescribed in TSRGD.
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Re: Is this a car park or a road ?

Post by 2 Sheds »

Isn’t most of London a car park most of the time ? :lol:
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Re: Is this a car park or a road ?

Post by M19 »

I’d call it a service road, because it serves the shops with access to car parking.
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Gav
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Re: Is this a car park or a road ?

Post by Gav »

Simple solution reverse the flow direction then its no longer a shortcut.
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Re: Is this a car park or a road ?

Post by poshbakerloo »

M19 wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 19:20 I’d call it a service road, because it serves the shops with access to car parking.
Yeah it's a service road, or a local access road whatever you call it - definitely not a car park.

Here are more examples outside of London:
Wilmslow, Cheshire https://goo.gl/maps/9qErbc9DzeETHSCX7

Handforth, Cheshire https://goo.gl/maps/ADx18NiWtBLh5BeQ6

I like this format of road - when I play Cities Skylines I often build a wide avenue with local access roads on each side for frontages. Works very well!
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Re: Is this a car park or a road ?

Post by traffic-light-man »

Gav wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 19:42 Simple solution reverse the flow direction then its no longer a shortcut.
There are plenty of these roads in Merseyside, though one that springs to mind immediately is this one, because it has been reversed so that it isn't a short-cut for the traffic signals.

This one, on the other hand, operates in-practice as though it's a left turn lane even when the signals are green, with drivers regularly mounting the footway at speed upon entry (like the driver in the GSV image appears to be doing).
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Re: Is this a car park or a road ?

Post by WHBM »

RichardA35 wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 08:47 OK I'll try to bring an evidential basis to the argument rather than unfounded opinion, anecdote or history.
Looking at TSRGD and comparing to the GSV images, the signage appears to be in accordance with Schedule 4 - "Upright signs that control waiting, loading and parking along a road", so this would confirm it is still part of the highway with a controlled parking area rather than an off-street car park whch could be free of signage, lining and restrictions prescribed in TSRGD.
Grateful for the contribution (and others). It looks therefore as if the sign "This is a Pay & Display car park" is thus incorrect. Which is what I suspected.

During a discussion with the shopowners (while Mrs W was being treated in one of them ... :) ) I ran them through the options. First was to reverse the direction, but that would continue the issue, the right turn at the signals is equally delay-laden, and it would introduce additional main road conflicts. They are 4-stage lights, one for each approach. It would also mean rebuilding the sawtooth parking bays to face the other way, and that would be a cost. So then you could also ban the right turn on exit, to force exiting traffic left back through the signals. You would need a central barrier on the main road; more cost. That would surely deal with the drive-throughs, but I described it would now also make it quite inconvenient to come through at all, and would have a negative impact on shop patronage. It would also introduce a tight manoeuvre which the large vans servicing the shops would find difficult if not impossible.

"No Entry except for access", or similar, would also be difficult, and impossible to enforce adequately, as quite often as you go round there are no parking spaces at all, and you end up continuing to park on the residential road behind.

Each of these steps was separately met with "Oooh yes" on first description, followed by "Oh" when I continued to the downsides. I did notice on doing a short survey outside (remember why we were here ...) that a notable proportion of those actually stopping and using the shops were only doing so for 5 minutes. Old traffic survey skills die hard. The car users, however, were a notable proportion of the shops patronage, maybe 50%. The rest seemed to be local walking. And, despite the provision of 7 stands, not one bicycle the whole time.
Last edited by WHBM on Sat Nov 07, 2020 16:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is this a car park or a road ?

Post by Bryn666 »

Probably because there appears to be no safe place to leave a bike.

As a transport planner you should know that people use the means of transport that is catered for at the end of their journey. That's why most people take a train into central London because there are onward connections and you're next to your destination.

In Paris they swapped car parking spaces for bike storage and by some amazing coincidence people started cycling instead. Now why might that be?
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Re: Is this a car park or a road ?

Post by welly_j »

WHBM wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 01:03 https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5463168 ... 384!8i8192

Signage is a P plate with "This is a Pay & Display car park". However, it also has one way street signage. It get used by left turning rat-runners avoiding the traffic signals, sometimes with extreme impatience of those who are parking.
The location of the Pay and Display machine is bizarre too (almost like they want to make it as awkward as possible to use it so that people don't and increase their risk of a petty fine !)
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Re: Is this a car park or a road ?

Post by Chris5156 »

Bryn666 wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 16:20Probably because there appears to be no safe place to leave a bike.
There are Sheffield bars in three places along the service road on GSV, though I dare say those basic facilities could be much better.
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Re: Is this a car park or a road ?

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris5156 wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 14:17
Bryn666 wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 16:20Probably because there appears to be no safe place to leave a bike.
There are Sheffield bars in three places along the service road on GSV, though I dare say those basic facilities could be much better.
Sheffield Stands are ridiculously easy to nick a bike from unfortunately. They're okay for a short stay pop into a shop where there's high footfall but not much beyond that. Even in high footfall areas in central Manchester you will find the rusted remains of a bike where someone has nicked the bits not chained to the Sheffield Stand.

Incidentally in the USA they call them staple stands.
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Re: Is this a car park or a road ?

Post by trickstat »

welly_j wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 23:47
WHBM wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 01:03 https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5463168 ... 384!8i8192

Signage is a P plate with "This is a Pay & Display car park". However, it also has one way street signage. It get used by left turning rat-runners avoiding the traffic signals, sometimes with extreme impatience of those who are parking.
The location of the Pay and Display machine is bizarre too (almost like they want to make it as awkward as possible to use it so that people don't and increase their risk of a petty fine !)
Took me a while to find it. I measured it as approx 75m from the first spaces you come to. At least it's free for the first 30 minutes so many people, perhaps the majority, won't need to pay.
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Re: Is this a car park or a road ?

Post by Chris Bertram »

trickstat wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 15:55
welly_j wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 23:47
WHBM wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 01:03 https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5463168 ... 384!8i8192

Signage is a P plate with "This is a Pay & Display car park". However, it also has one way street signage. It get used by left turning rat-runners avoiding the traffic signals, sometimes with extreme impatience of those who are parking.
The location of the Pay and Display machine is bizarre too (almost like they want to make it as awkward as possible to use it so that people don't and increase their risk of a petty fine !)
Took me a while to find it. I measured it as approx 75m from the first spaces you come to. At least it's free for the first 30 minutes so many people, perhaps the majority, won't need to pay.
They will still have to visit the machine to print out a ticket as evidence of their arrival time.
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Re: Is this a car park or a road ?

Post by RichardA35 »

Chris Bertram wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 18:41
trickstat wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 15:55
welly_j wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 23:47
The location of the Pay and Display machine is bizarre too (almost like they want to make it as awkward as possible to use it so that people don't and increase their risk of a petty fine !)
Took me a while to find it. I measured it as approx 75m from the first spaces you come to. At least it's free for the first 30 minutes so many people, perhaps the majority, won't need to pay.
They will still have to visit the machine to print out a ticket as evidence of their arrival time.
...or as it's 2020, record the arrival time via the RingGo app from the driver's seat.
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Re: Is this a car park or a road ?

Post by trickstat »

Chris Bertram wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 18:41
trickstat wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 15:55
welly_j wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 23:47
The location of the Pay and Display machine is bizarre too (almost like they want to make it as awkward as possible to use it so that people don't and increase their risk of a petty fine !)
Took me a while to find it. I measured it as approx 75m from the first spaces you come to. At least it's free for the first 30 minutes so many people, perhaps the majority, won't need to pay.
They will still have to visit the machine to print out a ticket as evidence of their arrival time.
I suspect a few people anticipating a quick 'in and out' of one shop, gamble on no inspectors coming in that time and don't bother. I think your luck would run out one day if you did it often.
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Re: Is this a car park or a road ?

Post by KeithW »

trickstat wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 20:44 I suspect a few people anticipating a quick 'in and out' of one shop, gamble on no inspectors coming in that time and don't bother. I think your luck would run out one day if you did it often.
If you get caught 1 time in 10 you would be better off which is the way a lot of people think. When our office was at Castle Hill in Cambridge the daily car parking charge was about half the cost of the fine and I know none of the guys in the accounts department ever bought a ticket as if they got caught 1 day in 3 it was still cheaper. Personally I caught the Park and Ride Bus from the Madingley Road.

At Canons Park when I lived there the enforcement was rather stricter. If your car was there between 2PM and 3PM it got towed, not only expensive - over £100 including the towing fee - but you had to get to the impound to recover it.
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