Westminster 20 limit

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Chris5156
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Westminster 20 limit

Post by Chris5156 »

I haven't seen this mentioned on SABRE yet, but it's something of an event: the City of Westminster has finally lost its status as the last hold-out of the urban 30 limit in Inner London, and is now implementing a borough-wide blanket 20 limit just like every adjoining borough.

The project isn't complete yet. There are lots of 20 repeaters popping up on streets across the area - I'm noticing more day by day, so I think signage crews are out and actively doing this at the moment. There are also adverts on buses and bin lorries with the slogan "Westminster's speed limit is 20". What's less in evidence yet are terminal signs. I don't know if legal orders are yet in effect to back up the signs.

Interestingly, while this might appear to be a sudden change of heart using emergency pandemic powers - and I'm sure Westminster's sudden blossoming of cycle infrastructure is exactly that - the 20mph limit has been in planning for a while and was consulted on in autumn last year. The consultation document (PDF 4Mb) suggests that the whole borough will be 20mph, and that TfL roads within the borough will also be 20mph throughout, with the exception of Park Lane northbound (formerly 40) which will be 30mph. In reality events have overtaken this; Park Lane northbound gained a lot of emergency cycle infrastructure and is now 20mph too.

There appears to be no proposal for 20 on Euston Road or the Inner Ring Road as yet... but as the consultation notes, TfL are reducing other central London roads to 20, including Victoria Embankment, and the City of London are seeking permission for a blanket 15mph limit, so we will see.
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Re: Westminster 20 limit

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris5156 wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 19:14 I haven't seen this mentioned on SABRE yet, but it's something of an event: the City of Westminster has finally lost its status as the last hold-out of the urban 30 limit in Inner London, and is now implementing a borough-wide blanket 20 limit just like every adjoining borough.

The project isn't complete yet. There are lots of 20 repeaters popping up on streets across the area - I'm noticing more day by day, so I think signage crews are out and actively doing this at the moment. There are also adverts on buses and bin lorries with the slogan "Westminster's speed limit is 20". What's less in evidence yet are terminal signs. I don't know if legal orders are yet in effect to back up the signs.

Interestingly, while this might appear to be a sudden change of heart using emergency pandemic powers - and I'm sure Westminster's sudden blossoming of cycle infrastructure is exactly that - the 20mph limit has been in planning for a while and was consulted on in autumn last year. The consultation document (PDF 4Mb) suggests that the whole borough will be 20mph, and that TfL roads within the borough will also be 20mph throughout, with the exception of Park Lane northbound (formerly 40) which will be 30mph. In reality events have overtaken this; Park Lane northbound gained a lot of emergency cycle infrastructure and is now 20mph too.

There appears to be no proposal for 20 on Euston Road or the Inner Ring Road as yet... but as the consultation notes, TfL are reducing other central London roads to 20, including Victoria Embankment, and the City of London are seeking permission for a blanket 15mph limit, so we will see.
Can't see the City getting their 15 limit, despite people's best efforts to find loopholes in the legislation that allows speed limits to be set.

As for Westminster, it was inevitable they'd see the writing on the wall - it's almost as if one of the most anti-active travel authorities in the capital has suddenly woken up and realised that there are far better ways to move millions of their residents than by expecting them all to drive.
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Re: Westminster 20 limit

Post by WHBM »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 20:12 As for Westminster, it was inevitable they'd see the writing on the wall - it's almost as if one of the most anti-active travel authorities in the capital has suddenly woken up and realised that there are far better ways to move millions of their residents than by expecting them all to drive.
You have to bear in mind that not everyone on Westminster roads is one of their residents - or even travelling there. If I go from Canary Wharf to Malmesbury, Wilts, which I did a couple of days ago, I pass through Westminster.
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Re: Westminster 20 limit

Post by thatapanydude »

WHBM wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 22:35
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 20:12 As for Westminster, it was inevitable they'd see the writing on the wall - it's almost as if one of the most anti-active travel authorities in the capital has suddenly woken up and realised that there are far better ways to move millions of their residents than by expecting them all to drive.
You have to bear in mind that not everyone on Westminster roads is one of their residents - or even travelling there. If I go from Canary Wharf to Malmesbury, Wilts, which I did a couple of days ago, I pass through Westminster.
Seconded - Traffic anyway can't usually go over 30mph because of the traffic during the day but what a blanket 20mph is impede travel and lengthen travel times in the off-peak. Westminster does form a significant section of cross-london travel. A few months back (pre c-charge extension) I travelled from Hammersmith to the A11 at Aldgate which is a journey which ought to be made via embankment but these days being 1 lane eastbound and 20mph, going via Kings Cross is quicker (though at the moment both routes are inadequate with the new restrictions).
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Re: Westminster 20 limit

Post by A9NWIL »

It looks like London really want to ban motor vehicles, except busses, from the whole city!
A rather impractical notion!
I can see it though, that unless you are a resident, you wont be able to go down certain streets soon and residents would likely be banned from using routes that arent designated to them.
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Re: Westminster 20 limit

Post by Phil »

WHBM wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 22:35
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 20:12 As for Westminster, it was inevitable they'd see the writing on the wall - it's almost as if one of the most anti-active travel authorities in the capital has suddenly woken up and realised that there are far better ways to move millions of their residents than by expecting them all to drive.
You have to bear in mind that not everyone on Westminster roads is one of their residents - or even travelling there. If I go from Canary Wharf to Malmesbury, Wilts, which I did a couple of days ago, I pass through Westminster.

What TfL (and the London boroughs) want you to do is not to drive in the first place! They want you to take the tube (would have been Crossrail but thats running well behind schedule) to Paddington then get a train followed by bus / taxi / get picked up or get in your own car that you parked at Chippenham / Swindon etc earlier in the day.

If you must drive between the two then they want you to obit London via the M25 and approach Canary Wharf from the east - i.e. NOT drive through central London regardless of how many extra miles it takes or fuel it costs you.

Its a fact that for the most part inner London residents simply don't need a car to get about on a day to day basis! A relative of mine had his stolen in an area just off the north circular last year and he managed fine for well over 12 months without a car (the main difficulty he had was taking stuff to the tip and visiting relatives outside London - both of which were solved by hiring a car when required).

Consequently TfL and the boroughs have long been of the view that they need to make inner London a hostile environment for the private motorist. A blanket 20mph around and within the inner ring road being one method and something which could be expanded to having no speed limit set higher than 30mph within the North /South Circular too.
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Re: Westminster 20 limit

Post by WHBM »

Curiously, I was at university with someone who, a generation later, became one of the most senior officers at Westminster. He's retired now.

Life was fine for him. Very substantial salary, lived in ... Tunbridge Wells. Train daily into Charing Cross, walk to the office on Victoria Street (Underground to St James Park if wet). Lots of meetings around London, for which a black cab on expenses. Attitude completely one of authority superiority.

Discussing some years ago Westminster's attitude to cars, principally parking then, he indeed said "oh, you don't need a car here". Even though they had FOUR at home (his, wife's, eldest son's, a convertible for the summer) in a big garage, and apart from that daily train and any other going to London the whole family never set foot in public transport from one year end to the next.
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Re: Westminster 20 limit

Post by ChrisH »

It is the stated policy of the Mayor of London to create further reductions in car trips across London, but especially in central London. Some of these trips can be "thrown over the fence" to become Highways England's problem via the M25, although it's not a trend they acknowledged when I raised it a few years ago. The number of vehicles on the Inner Ring Road who are making what might be called "strategic" journeys is a very small proportion of the total - the average trip length is a few miles.

Westminster and RBKC were the last two hold-out boroughs who did very little for active travel and retained most of their 30mph speed limits. It's notable that this is the year when that resistance has ended - even Kensington High Street is at last getting its segregated cycle lanes, although they are ugly wands rather than the beautiful kerb-segregated two-way track I designed for them back in 2013.
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Re: Westminster 20 limit

Post by frediculous_biggs »

Let's stick to discussing the 20 limit in Westminster and not the general concept of reducing speed limits which should be in another thread
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Re: Westminster 20 limit

Post by someone »

Chris5156 wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 19:14 I haven't seen this mentioned on SABRE yet, but it's something of an event: the City of Westminster has finally lost its status as the last hold-out of the urban 30 limit in Inner London, and is now implementing a borough-wide blanket 20 limit just like every adjoining borough.
Unless it has changed since the lockdown started, Wandsworth do not have a blanket 20 limit. They introduced 20 limits on unclassified roads and where otherwise appropriate, but retained 30 mph for A- and B-roads.

Which, to me, should be the normal speed limit for built up areas. Though I am not sure how you could draft a law using a road characteristic, such as street lamp spacing, to differentiate the two.

Unfortunately from Streatham to head north on the A1 or M1 means travelling 18 miles south, on mostly built-up roads, to the M25 for a long detour or travelling though a ten-mile-wide zone of 20 with few exceptions. Whilst I only use public transport for my local travel within London, it is not a viable option for visiting my dad in a Lincolnshire village.

The other problem is that as someone who makes a lot of use of buses, I do really notice the speed limit distance between 20 and 30 mph. And when they are being ignored! But reducing the speed limit obviously increases many journey times.

Reducing speed limits, and promoting increased cycling in bus lanes so that it further restricts buses to the speed of the slowest cyclist, actually make them a less attractive option. At times it has made me consider whether it would be better to use my motorbike.

I was once on Waterloo Bridge one evening, and so thought I would try the X68 to West Norwood and change. It is a peak-only service which is non-stop from Waterloo to West Norwood, then on to Croydon. It was absolutely glorious, with a lot of whizzing along bus lanes and not having to stop. This is what you need if you want to promote public transport as viable for short journeys, particularly in areas like here without access to the tube. Although even that will be unable to do so much whizzing now.

Especially in London, because of its size, a Wandsworth style solution makes more sense because otherwise it undermines itself as it does not make public transport more attractive. And this is particularly true of Westminster, which is a pinch point for traffic from central south London heading north for which there is no attractive alternative, such as an equivalent of the North Circular to route traffic around the centre.

The direct route from Streatham to the M1/A1 is via A23, A203, Vauxhall Bridge, Park Lane, A41. Google seems to prefer the longer route of A205, A3220, A40, A406 but the congestion on the A3220, the A40 in Acton, and contending with Hanger Lane is no better than you get in central London. I also find using the A4 and the S2 section of the A406 better than the latter, but I am sure Google has its reasons.

But from actual experience, the brief benefits of the faster A406 and A40/A4 are still outweighed by the direct route. And a 20 speed limit will not make it any less attractive, a viable alternative would.
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Re: Westminster 20 limit

Post by Richard_Fairhurst »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 06:37It is quite rare that I drive into London... but when I do, there is a good reason for doing so (usually because I have loads of equipment to carry - which is unfeasible on public transport) even allowing for the fact that it is more expensive for me to use the train...
Even the logic of "but I've got to move heavy stuff" is diminishing these days. Courier firms are so massive and efficient that it's often more economic to ship stuff using a third party than to carry it yourself.

I recently took delivery of a pretty hefty HP server from London - I'd assumed it would be cheapest to collect it by car or by train/foot, but shipping was just £20, reliable, and trackable.

(Of course, I then ordered a hard drive for it on eBay, which Hermes managed to break by posting it through a letterbox 1.5m off the ground. Sigh.)

Obviously there are still going to be bands with equipment to truck around and so on, but for most people, I suspect the unceasing advance of the couriers and of online shopping means that there'll usually be a cheaper alternative to using your own car.
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Re: Westminster 20 limit

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Richard_Fairhurst wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 15:13
(Of course, I then ordered a hard drive for it on eBay, which Hermes managed to break by posting it through a letterbox 1.5m off the ground. Sigh.)
I'll actively avoid buying from anyone that ships using Hermes - they're the worst out of all the couriers...
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Re: Westminster 20 limit

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someone wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:00Unless it has changed since the lockdown started, Wandsworth do not have a blanket 20 limit. They introduced 20 limits on unclassified roads and where otherwise appropriate, but retained 30 mph for A- and B-roads.
Yes, the implementation of borough-wide 20 limits varies depending on the area. Some are genuine blanket 20s (Southwark, Westminster, etc) and others are blanket 20s excluding main roads that remain 30 (Wandsworth, Croydon, etc).

If I were installed as all-powerful dictator and found myself with the time to think about such things, I'd go for the Wandsworth option, personally - many of the main roads reduced to 20 in places like Southwark are suitable for 30, the DfT guidance is that they should usually be 30, and having two tiers of road will naturally encourage people making journeys on to those roads and off the residential rat runs. It makes sense to me to differentiate between quiet streets used for vehicles to access buildings, and through roads used for vehicles to move around the city.

On the other hand, most of London's blanket 20 limits are not enforced and not observed by the majority of vehicles. It is unusual to find anyone genuinely keeping to 20 in a 20 limit, including police cars and buses. So in practice I see no great difference between the two.
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Re: Westminster 20 limit

Post by Herned »

Chris5156 wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:39 On the other hand, most of London's blanket 20 limits are not enforced and not observed by the majority of vehicles. It is unusual to find anyone genuinely keeping to 20 in a 20 limit, including police cars and buses. So in practice I see no great difference between the two.
Although with automatic speed limiters becoming legal requirements for new cars in 15 months time, that will change. It only needs a few cars slowing to that speed for all traffic to effectively be limited in a busy city
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Re: Westminster 20 limit

Post by ChrisH »

London buses will also soon be fitted with speed limiter devices, which will cause much more 20mph compliance in the zones where there are plenty of buses.
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Re: Westminster 20 limit

Post by Bryn666 »

ChrisH wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:46 London buses will also soon be fitted with speed limiter devices, which will cause much more 20mph compliance in the zones where there are plenty of buses.
Can't say I disagree, having been on a Diamond NW bus this morning which was driven as if Howard Payne had rigged it to blow if it dropped below the 40mph speed limit on the A673... :roll: :roll:
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Re: Westminster 20 limit

Post by Al__S »

ChrisH wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:46 London buses will also soon be fitted with speed limiter devices, which will cause much more 20mph compliance in the zones where there are plenty of buses.
Intelligent Speed Assistance (the limiter technology) has been mandatory on new buses in TfL service since 2017- as of March 31st this year that was 2331 buses out of 9102. Not sure if they've got a program of retrofitting it
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Re: Westminster 20 limit

Post by A9NWIL »

Al__S wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 20:58
ChrisH wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:46 London buses will also soon be fitted with speed limiter devices, which will cause much more 20mph compliance in the zones where there are plenty of buses.
Intelligent Speed Assistance (the limiter technology) has been mandatory on new buses in TfL service since 2017- as of March 31st this year that was 2331 buses out of 9102. Not sure if they've got a program of retrofitting it
I imagine that they will be looking to replace all older busses except heritage busses, I expect its easier than retrofitting. The older busses will get sold on, they arent green after all! Newer busses are going to be much more green, even if they arent fully green.
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Re: Westminster 20 limit

Post by Lockwood »

That 40 limit on Park Lane has always seemed strange, given the traffic levels. The camera there is really odd being as close to the traffic lights as it is - you always hit traffic, and those lights seem to always be red, so whatever speed you do before there you end up at sub-30 for the camera.


I occasionally work out of Marylebone. I end up taking a service vehicle from Guildford rather than using my own car - someone else can pay the ULEZ - and then use that vehicle to work (saving one lot of ULEZ by using one vehicle).

I'm not 100% sure whether my journey in takes me through Westminster's patch or if I skirt around the edge of it, but I do find it incredibly frustrating how long it takes to get across London - satnav takes me a different route most times, but the universal constant is the trudge across Chutney Bridge. Most routes beyond that are trudgy as well. I think the last time I did that drive, it came out as about 1hr20, most of which was at a dead crawl.

The crawling does make me wonder what the point of some of the speed limit reductions are. If there is London traffic, you'll not be doing 30 anyway. Some of the drops seem to be going for the politician solution: We must do something, this is something, therefore we must do it.
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Re: Westminster 20 limit

Post by Chris5156 »

Lockwood wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 21:37That 40 limit on Park Lane has always seemed strange, given the traffic levels. The camera there is really odd being as close to the traffic lights as it is - you always hit traffic, and those lights seem to always be red, so whatever speed you do before there you end up at sub-30 for the camera.
Depends when you travel - I've had plenty of 40mph runs for the full length from Hyde Park Corner to Marble Arch, or more often than that, a 40mph run interrupted by a stop for one of the sets of lights, followed by a Wacky Races getaway to hit 40 again. Lots of fun.
The crawling does make me wonder what the point of some of the speed limit reductions are. If there is London traffic, you'll not be doing 30 anyway. Some of the drops seem to be going for the politician solution: We must do something, this is something, therefore we must do it.
Again, depends when you travel and where exactly you're driving. I've been commuting by car into central London once every few weeks for years now, and have been doing it full time since March. I'm still doing it now even though traffic levels are back to normal, for various reasons. There's a lot of crawling in slow traffic, but in the very centre of London it's rarely like that now. Westway, for example, is a solid traffic jam for most of the day where it smashes into Marylebone Road, but once you're through the first set of lights it usually clips along at 30 again. The crawl over Putney Bridge is also very familiar to me, but off there and onto Brompton Road and you're back to 30 most of the way to Westminster, save an inevitable hold-up where you cross the A3220. But as you say, on other roads or at other times, you might just sit in traffic.

Within the Congestion Charge area, traffic is still lighter than usual and most traffic seems to be clipping along at a decent pace on many roads. A drop from 30 to 20, if it was actually observed by traffic, would make a definite change there.
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