I was told they were all done, again, I'll poke the appropriate engineer when I'm back at workwrinkly wrote:There is no side roads order or CPO in place for the project.
A1(M) Leeming - Barton
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Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON
- Mark Hewitt
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Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON
OK. To try and put this renumbering thing to bed.A303Paul wrote:I would think it is likely that the A1(M) north of the M1 would be renumbered M1 but that would need junction number changes as well as renumbering.
On A1D2B (a length of approximately 20km) there were somewhere between 150 and 200 existing road signs found to refer to 'A1' on the wider road network, in a corridor the length of the scheme, and which either needed patching, replacing or removing.
However, if you drive around the area, including into Ripon and Thirsk, you will find plenty of existing signs still referring to the 'A1' rather than 'A1(M)' (just as on the wider network beyond the older Darrington to Dishforth scheme), because neither the HA nor North Yorks. C.C. have the money to change them. They will be replaced, over time, but only as and when the signs are damaged or become unreadable, etc., but only then.
Imagine then, changing the name completely, and over that great a length. The number of signs beyond the mainline, and within various local authorities, which would need to be changed to avoid confusion.
Sorry, I know how people on this board like to rationalise the system by 'simply' renumbering roads, but logistically it's a 'mare and unless someone high up at the DfT suddenly wins the lottery, isn't going to happen.
Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON
While I like the idea of the M1 going all the way to Newcastle, I can see that it can be too much hassle to be worth it. However, I do think the junction numbers need tidying up. With Leeming as junction 51 and Barton as junction 56, there's only three junctions between the two. Catterick South 52, Catterick North 53, Scotch Corner 54.
Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON
There will only be one junction at Catterick - in the middle of the existing bypass - so that will be 52 and Scotch Corner will be 53.jgharston wrote:While I like the idea of the M1 going all the way to Newcastle, I can see that it can be too much hassle to be worth it. However, I do think the junction numbers need tidying up. With Leeming as junction 51 and Barton as junction 56, there's only three junctions between the two. Catterick South 52, Catterick North 53, Scotch Corner 54.
Personally I'd rather see 53 skipped, so that there is scope for a future direct free-flow link between the A1(M) south and the A66 west.
Chris
Roads.org.uk
Roads.org.uk
Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON
I recall sorting the signs out for the A57 / B6200 swap in the 90's, most of the signs where either small or patched, with a few larger ones on the A630, A57 & B6200 - we spent about £150k - that's the outfall for a road about 4 miles long. Renumbering and new direction strategies cost a fortune - seem to recall the recent Sheffield City Centre one put at something like £800k too, £200k spent on getting rid of life expired green signs around Brighouse too.Debaser wrote:Sorry, I know how people on this board like to rationalise the system by 'simply' renumbering roads, but logistically it's a 'mare and unless someone high up at the DfT suddenly wins the lottery, isn't going to happen.
Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON
Haha... I'm already getting a nervous tick about the upset to the zoning system that would cause...!A303Paul wrote: Of course if you extended the A1(M) from Darrington to Scratchwood, you could renumber the A1(M) as M1 and the M1 as M10
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Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON
Looking on roadworks.org tree removal is starting on 2/1/13 and ongoing til 17/1/13 every night, I'm guessing that if they aim to start this scheme as mentioned later this year then these trees must be removed before spring and bird nesting season.
I remember very well that outside our house on the Leeming Dishforth section trees where also removed Just after new year and the scheme started later that year so it makes perfect sense!
I remember very well that outside our house on the Leeming Dishforth section trees where also removed Just after new year and the scheme started later that year so it makes perfect sense!
Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON
Indeed, I've just spent 18k for a mere 28 signs in Elland. I don't think SABRE appreciates the expense of signsHaydn1971 wrote:I recall sorting the signs out for the A57 / B6200 swap in the 90's, most of the signs where either small or patched, with a few larger ones on the A630, A57 & B6200 - we spent about £150k - that's the outfall for a road about 4 miles long. Renumbering and new direction strategies cost a fortune - seem to recall the recent Sheffield City Centre one put at something like £800k too, £200k spent on getting rid of life expired green signs around Brighouse too.Debaser wrote:Sorry, I know how people on this board like to rationalise the system by 'simply' renumbering roads, but logistically it's a 'mare and unless someone high up at the DfT suddenly wins the lottery, isn't going to happen.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
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Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON
I normally stay out of discussions about suggested large-scale renumberings, but I think it only fair to point out that the authorities have done some pretty big ones at times, such as A14/A45/A604, A50, A90.
Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON
Yes, they're not impossible but the implications are huge. Legacy signs and maps not catching up cause numerous issues for years after.
From a pure SABRE point it would be ideal to have the M1 to Newcastle but probably is never likely in austerity time.
From a pure SABRE point it would be ideal to have the M1 to Newcastle but probably is never likely in austerity time.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON
A50 wasn't that big really - it might just sneak in. A34/A41 was bigger, Newcastle (x2) was bigger. Even the A470 was bigger!wrinkly wrote:I normally stay out of discussions about suggested large-scale renumberings, but I think it only fair to point out that the authorities have done some pretty big ones at times, such as A14/A45/A604, A50, A90.
But does the London-Newcastle route actually go via Catthorpe? Surely it goes via Alconbury?Bryn666 wrote:From a pure SABRE point it would be ideal to have the M1 to Newcastle but probably is never likely in austerity time.
"“Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations" Thomas Jefferson
Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON
The thing is, any signs referring to (A1) need to be changed to (A1(M)) because of the different traffic restrictions on a motorway to a non-motorway – that's far more important than updating signs to reflect a renumbering.Debaser wrote:On A1D2B (a length of approximately 20km) there were somewhere between 150 and 200 existing road signs found to refer to 'A1' on the wider road network, in a corridor the length of the scheme, and which either needed patching, replacing or removing.
However, if you drive around the area, including into Ripon and Thirsk, you will find plenty of existing signs still referring to the 'A1' rather than 'A1(M)' (just as on the wider network beyond the older Darrington to Dishforth scheme), because neither the HA nor North Yorks. C.C. have the money to change them. They will be replaced, over time, but only as and when the signs are damaged or become unreadable, etc., but only then.
Patching a sign that currently says (A1) to (M1) can be done fairly easily, whereas trying to patch (A1) to (A1(M)) means you often won't have enough space for the longer number, leading to some microscopic text such as http://goo.gl/maps/CKtAk. Likewise patching a sign that currently says (A1(M)) to (M1) will always be possible, even if it might lead to some inelegant spacing. So actually setting the route to M1 all the way to Newcastle might enable all the signs within the surrounding area to be patched rather than needing a lot of them to be comletely replaced, so might not be as expensive as you have suggested.
Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON
At Hook Moor southbound, London traffic is directed to take the M1, not the A1(M), so that suggests that the official route is via Catthorpe.si404 wrote: But does the London-Newcastle route actually go via Catthorpe? Surely it goes via Alconbury?
Owen
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Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON
True! and by having the M1 all the way to Newcastle I think it would make sense, although many say it won't happen I'm not to sure look at the A14 why was that done? to give a simple one number route from Birmingham well Catthorpe to Felixstowe, so whats the difference with giving Newcastle a simple one number from London, I think if you look at the arrangement at Hook Moor its a sign of whats ahead with the M1 the mainline and most signs Just read 'M1 The North Wetherby' which really they should be 'M1 (A1(M))The North Wetherby' simple clues or mistakes I'm sure nobody truly knows the answer to this until its all completed!At Hook Moor southbound, London traffic is directed to take the M1, not the A1(M), so that suggests that the official route is via Catthorpe.
Back on topic with Leeming Barton I was wondering what happens to the people who last year bought the houses that were empty for years Just North of Catterick? these were sold off due to the scheme not going ahead in the next 10+ years they were done up and now lived in so I'm guessing these will be purchased back and demolished? I know people who bought them hoped that when the scheme came back on in many years a new route would be chosen but now thats no the case! Just shows the need for cheap housing when people have to live within 4 feet of the A1, we were about 20 feet back from it before the Dishforth Leeming upgrade and suffered terrible noise and movement in the house so what must these houses be like?
Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON
Yet at the M1/M18 junction, traffic for "The NORTH" is signed via the M18. Maybe the idea that "the route" exists is an oversimplification.owen b wrote:At Hook Moor southbound, London traffic is directed to take the M1, not the A1(M), so that suggests that the official route is via Catthorpe.si404 wrote: But does the London-Newcastle route actually go via Catthorpe? Surely it goes via Alconbury?
- Mark Hewitt
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Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON
Ah, but we were talking about London specifically.wrinkly wrote:
Yet at the M1/M18 junction, traffic for "The NORTH" is signed via the M18. Maybe the idea that "the route" exists is an oversimplification.
At Hook Moor traffic for "The SOUTH" is directed via the A1(M)
Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON
The signs at Thurcroft are surely a hangover from when the M1 stopped in the middle of Leeds. The dog-leg via M1/M62/A1 was not worthwhile so everyone was signed via Doncaster.
Legacy signing that no one has ever bothered to review, and indeed, it's been repeated on brand new signs.
Legacy signing that no one has ever bothered to review, and indeed, it's been repeated on brand new signs.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
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X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
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Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON
But from a safety critical/restrictions point, only the signs in the immediate vicinity of the junction matter as they will direct traffic onto the relevant road that they are permitted to go on. Those signs would be installed anyway as part of the motorway construction since the junction layouts or locations will be altered.Stevie D wrote:The thing is, any signs referring to (A1) need to be changed to (A1(M)) because of the different traffic restrictions on a motorway to a non-motorway – that's far more important than updating signs to reflect a renumbering.
It doesn't really matter if a sign five miles away from the motorway says A1 instead of A1(M) as by the time prohibited traffic reaches the motorway junction the signs will make it clear what is a motorway and what the the all-purpose alternative.
If there is still a sign in Ripon saying "Newcastle (A1)" in 20 years time it is not going to confuse anyone's navigation, nor is it going to send prohibited traffic onto a motorway.
Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON
Indeed the signs at M1/M18 must be fairly new - they must date from the M1 J31-32 widening.Bryn666 wrote:The signs at Thurcroft are surely a hangover from when the M1 stopped in the middle of Leeds. The dog-leg via M1/M62/A1 was not worthwhile so everyone was signed via Doncaster.
Legacy signing that no one has ever bothered to review, and indeed, it's been repeated on brand new signs.
Meanwhile all the southbound signs at the M1/A1(M) split still say A1 rather than A1(M).