A1(M) Leeming - Barton

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Haydn1971
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Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON

Post by Haydn1971 »

wrinkly wrote:There is no side roads order or CPO in place for the project.
I was told they were all done, again, I'll poke the appropriate engineer when I'm back at work ;-)
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Mark Hewitt
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Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON

Post by Mark Hewitt »

Likely? If you mean likely as not a chance in hell. Then sure.
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Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON

Post by Debaser »

A303Paul wrote:I would think it is likely that the A1(M) north of the M1 would be renumbered M1 but that would need junction number changes as well as renumbering.
OK. To try and put this renumbering thing to bed.

On A1D2B (a length of approximately 20km) there were somewhere between 150 and 200 existing road signs found to refer to 'A1' on the wider road network, in a corridor the length of the scheme, and which either needed patching, replacing or removing.

However, if you drive around the area, including into Ripon and Thirsk, you will find plenty of existing signs still referring to the 'A1' rather than 'A1(M)' (just as on the wider network beyond the older Darrington to Dishforth scheme), because neither the HA nor North Yorks. C.C. have the money to change them. They will be replaced, over time, but only as and when the signs are damaged or become unreadable, etc., but only then.

Imagine then, changing the name completely, and over that great a length. The number of signs beyond the mainline, and within various local authorities, which would need to be changed to avoid confusion.

Sorry, I know how people on this board like to rationalise the system by 'simply' renumbering roads, but logistically it's a 'mare and unless someone high up at the DfT suddenly wins the lottery, isn't going to happen.
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Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON

Post by jgharston »

While I like the idea of the M1 going all the way to Newcastle, I can see that it can be too much hassle to be worth it. However, I do think the junction numbers need tidying up. With Leeming as junction 51 and Barton as junction 56, there's only three junctions between the two. Catterick South 52, Catterick North 53, Scotch Corner 54.
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Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON

Post by Chris5156 »

jgharston wrote:While I like the idea of the M1 going all the way to Newcastle, I can see that it can be too much hassle to be worth it. However, I do think the junction numbers need tidying up. With Leeming as junction 51 and Barton as junction 56, there's only three junctions between the two. Catterick South 52, Catterick North 53, Scotch Corner 54.
There will only be one junction at Catterick - in the middle of the existing bypass - so that will be 52 and Scotch Corner will be 53.

Personally I'd rather see 53 skipped, so that there is scope for a future direct free-flow link between the A1(M) south and the A66 west.
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Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON

Post by Haydn1971 »

Debaser wrote:Sorry, I know how people on this board like to rationalise the system by 'simply' renumbering roads, but logistically it's a 'mare and unless someone high up at the DfT suddenly wins the lottery, isn't going to happen.
I recall sorting the signs out for the A57 / B6200 swap in the 90's, most of the signs where either small or patched, with a few larger ones on the A630, A57 & B6200 - we spent about £150k - that's the outfall for a road about 4 miles long. Renumbering and new direction strategies cost a fortune - seem to recall the recent Sheffield City Centre one put at something like £800k too, £200k spent on getting rid of life expired green signs around Brighouse too.
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Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON

Post by c2R »

A303Paul wrote: Of course if you extended the A1(M) from Darrington to Scratchwood, you could renumber the A1(M) as M1 and the M1 as M10 :stir:
Haha... I'm already getting a nervous tick about the upset to the zoning system that would cause...!
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Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON

Post by NICK 647063 »

Looking on roadworks.org tree removal is starting on 2/1/13 and ongoing til 17/1/13 every night, I'm guessing that if they aim to start this scheme as mentioned later this year then these trees must be removed before spring and bird nesting season.

I remember very well that outside our house on the Leeming Dishforth section trees where also removed Just after new year and the scheme started later that year so it makes perfect sense!
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Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON

Post by Bryn666 »

Haydn1971 wrote:
Debaser wrote:Sorry, I know how people on this board like to rationalise the system by 'simply' renumbering roads, but logistically it's a 'mare and unless someone high up at the DfT suddenly wins the lottery, isn't going to happen.
I recall sorting the signs out for the A57 / B6200 swap in the 90's, most of the signs where either small or patched, with a few larger ones on the A630, A57 & B6200 - we spent about £150k - that's the outfall for a road about 4 miles long. Renumbering and new direction strategies cost a fortune - seem to recall the recent Sheffield City Centre one put at something like £800k too, £200k spent on getting rid of life expired green signs around Brighouse too.
Indeed, I've just spent 18k for a mere 28 signs in Elland. I don't think SABRE appreciates the expense of signs ;-)
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Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON

Post by wrinkly »

I normally stay out of discussions about suggested large-scale renumberings, but I think it only fair to point out that the authorities have done some pretty big ones at times, such as A14/A45/A604, A50, A90.
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Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON

Post by Bryn666 »

Yes, they're not impossible but the implications are huge. Legacy signs and maps not catching up cause numerous issues for years after.

From a pure SABRE point it would be ideal to have the M1 to Newcastle but probably is never likely in austerity time.
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Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON

Post by si404 »

wrinkly wrote:I normally stay out of discussions about suggested large-scale renumberings, but I think it only fair to point out that the authorities have done some pretty big ones at times, such as A14/A45/A604, A50, A90.
A50 wasn't that big really - it might just sneak in. A34/A41 was bigger, Newcastle (x2) was bigger. Even the A470 was bigger!
Bryn666 wrote:From a pure SABRE point it would be ideal to have the M1 to Newcastle but probably is never likely in austerity time.
But does the London-Newcastle route actually go via Catthorpe? Surely it goes via Alconbury?
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Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON

Post by Stevie D »

Debaser wrote:On A1D2B (a length of approximately 20km) there were somewhere between 150 and 200 existing road signs found to refer to 'A1' on the wider road network, in a corridor the length of the scheme, and which either needed patching, replacing or removing.

However, if you drive around the area, including into Ripon and Thirsk, you will find plenty of existing signs still referring to the 'A1' rather than 'A1(M)' (just as on the wider network beyond the older Darrington to Dishforth scheme), because neither the HA nor North Yorks. C.C. have the money to change them. They will be replaced, over time, but only as and when the signs are damaged or become unreadable, etc., but only then.
The thing is, any signs referring to (A1) need to be changed to (A1(M)) because of the different traffic restrictions on a motorway to a non-motorway – that's far more important than updating signs to reflect a renumbering.

Patching a sign that currently says (A1) to (M1) can be done fairly easily, whereas trying to patch (A1) to (A1(M)) means you often won't have enough space for the longer number, leading to some microscopic text such as http://goo.gl/maps/CKtAk. Likewise patching a sign that currently says (A1(M)) to (M1) will always be possible, even if it might lead to some inelegant spacing. So actually setting the route to M1 all the way to Newcastle might enable all the signs within the surrounding area to be patched rather than needing a lot of them to be comletely replaced, so might not be as expensive as you have suggested.
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Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON

Post by owen b »

si404 wrote: But does the London-Newcastle route actually go via Catthorpe? Surely it goes via Alconbury?
At Hook Moor southbound, London traffic is directed to take the M1, not the A1(M), so that suggests that the official route is via Catthorpe.
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Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON

Post by NICK 647063 »

At Hook Moor southbound, London traffic is directed to take the M1, not the A1(M), so that suggests that the official route is via Catthorpe.
True! and by having the M1 all the way to Newcastle I think it would make sense, although many say it won't happen I'm not to sure look at the A14 why was that done? to give a simple one number route from Birmingham well Catthorpe to Felixstowe, so whats the difference with giving Newcastle a simple one number from London, I think if you look at the arrangement at Hook Moor its a sign of whats ahead with the M1 the mainline and most signs Just read 'M1 The North Wetherby' which really they should be 'M1 (A1(M))The North Wetherby' simple clues or mistakes I'm sure nobody truly knows the answer to this until its all completed!


Back on topic with Leeming Barton I was wondering what happens to the people who last year bought the houses that were empty for years Just North of Catterick? these were sold off due to the scheme not going ahead in the next 10+ years they were done up and now lived in so I'm guessing these will be purchased back and demolished? I know people who bought them hoped that when the scheme came back on in many years a new route would be chosen but now thats no the case! Just shows the need for cheap housing when people have to live within 4 feet of the A1, we were about 20 feet back from it before the Dishforth Leeming upgrade and suffered terrible noise and movement in the house so what must these houses be like?
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Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON

Post by wrinkly »

owen b wrote:
si404 wrote: But does the London-Newcastle route actually go via Catthorpe? Surely it goes via Alconbury?
At Hook Moor southbound, London traffic is directed to take the M1, not the A1(M), so that suggests that the official route is via Catthorpe.
Yet at the M1/M18 junction, traffic for "The NORTH" is signed via the M18. Maybe the idea that "the route" exists is an oversimplification.
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Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON

Post by Mark Hewitt »

wrinkly wrote:
Yet at the M1/M18 junction, traffic for "The NORTH" is signed via the M18. Maybe the idea that "the route" exists is an oversimplification.
Ah, but we were talking about London specifically.

At Hook Moor traffic for "The SOUTH" is directed via the A1(M)
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Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON

Post by Bryn666 »

The signs at Thurcroft are surely a hangover from when the M1 stopped in the middle of Leeds. The dog-leg via M1/M62/A1 was not worthwhile so everyone was signed via Doncaster.

Legacy signing that no one has ever bothered to review, and indeed, it's been repeated on brand new signs. :x
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Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON

Post by Glen »

Stevie D wrote:The thing is, any signs referring to (A1) need to be changed to (A1(M)) because of the different traffic restrictions on a motorway to a non-motorway – that's far more important than updating signs to reflect a renumbering.
But from a safety critical/restrictions point, only the signs in the immediate vicinity of the junction matter as they will direct traffic onto the relevant road that they are permitted to go on. Those signs would be installed anyway as part of the motorway construction since the junction layouts or locations will be altered.
It doesn't really matter if a sign five miles away from the motorway says A1 instead of A1(M) as by the time prohibited traffic reaches the motorway junction the signs will make it clear what is a motorway and what the the all-purpose alternative.
If there is still a sign in Ripon saying "Newcastle (A1)" in 20 years time it is not going to confuse anyone's navigation, nor is it going to send prohibited traffic onto a motorway.
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Re: A1(M) LEEMING - BARTON

Post by wrinkly »

Bryn666 wrote:The signs at Thurcroft are surely a hangover from when the M1 stopped in the middle of Leeds. The dog-leg via M1/M62/A1 was not worthwhile so everyone was signed via Doncaster.

Legacy signing that no one has ever bothered to review, and indeed, it's been repeated on brand new signs. :x
Indeed the signs at M1/M18 must be fairly new - they must date from the M1 J31-32 widening.

Meanwhile all the southbound signs at the M1/A1(M) split still say A1 rather than A1(M).
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