M1 J10-13 smart motorway upgrading

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

User avatar
ManomayLR
Social Media Admin
Posts: 3331
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:47
Location: London, UK

M1 J10-13 smart motorway upgrading

Post by ManomayLR »

As the M1 J13-16 smart motorway is dawning upon us, a lot of people have been proposing that J10-13 is also upgraded. For example, our fellow Sabrist Chris has provided his very helpful view on this (originally from the original thread linked above).
Chris5156 wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 17:30 This is very welcome for the fourth lane it will provide, but the real problems on the M1 between M25 and M6 are not on this stretch - they are between J10 and J13. The hard shoulder is not opened nearly often enough and the way it comes and goes at absurdly frequent intervals around J11, 11a, Toddington and J12 is extremely difficult to understand.

The difference between the experience of driving that section of motorway - which, even as someone who has written articles about Smart Motorways to help other people understand them, I find stressful and bewildering - and the ALR sections further north is astonishing. J16-19 is simple and stress-free (at least for me, with my car's limiter set below the camera threshold) and older Smart Motorways really ought to be brought up to that standard.
To this I reply:

Putting words into my mouth. Ecstatic that someone agrees with me. A new junction is all well and good but DHSR (and improperly working DHSR at that) is indeed stressful and maybe it just needs ALRing.

But there are two ways I propose that should be done in:
Option 1: an in-place upgrade for the shortest work period possible. Involves keeping most of the signalling equipment and cameras as they are, fitting a rigid concrete barrier, and just breaking the line on the hard shoulder, and removing hard shoulder cameras and those blue blind style "continue onto hard shoulder/merge into lane 1" signs.

Option 2: a full refurbishment. Will provide a significant traffic quality and aesthetical improvement, but will take longer and be more costly.
Involves:
  • Knocking down signal gantries except those "gateway" gantries after junction on-slips and periodically in a long stretch, and replacing all other gantries with MS4 posts. Will improve the view aesthetically as the overhead view looks more peaceful/not cluttered with gantries.
  • Changing the ERA signs to pictorial and yellowing the ERA surface. Will provide accessibility improvements.
  • Resurfacing.
  • Fitting a rigid concrete barrier (RCB) for crash protection.
  • Removing the central lighting as it is hardly ever used anyway and is not compatible with an RCB.

I think the full refurbishment is worth it, but I'd like your views. Perhaps if you think there is another approach to upgrading J10-13, or if you have a different approach to the matter, this thread allows us to discuss away without going off-topic.

Now over with the rambling essay, and let the discussion begin!
Though roads may not put a smile on everyone's face, there is one road that always will: the road to home.
darkcape
Member
Posts: 2094
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 14:54

Re: M1 J10-13 smart motorway upgrading

Post by darkcape »

No reason why the gantries and hard shoulder cameras need to be removed, more gantries means better control of traffic.

We discussed this a few years ago (I can't remember which thread) as the HE were seriously studying options for conversion but it's all gone quiet. Something about poor clearances in LBS1 despite it being used as a dynamic running lane.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: M1 J10-13 smart motorway upgrading

Post by Bryn666 »

Ahh yes like the A27... "we don't want to admit we messed up so here's a ridiculous technical reason we can't do it even though it flies in the face of everything we do elsewhere"...
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
Chris5156
Deputy Treasurer
Posts: 16908
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: M1 J10-13 smart motorway upgrading

Post by Chris5156 »

It’ll have to happen sooner or later. Once 13-16 is done I fully expect a southbound queue at J13 will form to match the semi-perennial one northbound at J10 and the accident statistics will speak for themselves.
XC70
Member
Posts: 624
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 23:22

Re: M1 J10-13 smart motorway upgrading

Post by XC70 »

Why remove the gantries? That would strike me as a complete waste and a backward step in terms of clarity of signalling.
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: M1 J10-13 smart motorway upgrading

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris5156 wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 08:47 It’ll have to happen sooner or later. Once 13-16 is done I fully expect a southbound queue at J13 will form to match the semi-perennial one northbound at J10 and the accident statistics will speak for themselves.
Yes, surely it's quite easy to convert - just remark the carriageways? Surely the dynamic HSR equipment can cope with 24/7 all lane running without massive changes.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
ManomayLR
Social Media Admin
Posts: 3331
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:47
Location: London, UK

Re: M1 J10-13 smart motorway upgrading

Post by ManomayLR »

XC70 wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 08:57 Why remove the gantries? That would strike me as a complete waste and a backward step in terms of clarity of signalling.
I find verge mounted MS4s much more beautiful as they aren’t always obstructing the view ahead.
But yes, removing the gantries is just a waste of time for everyone as they will unnecessarily lengthen the works.
Sorry for being controversial earlier...
Though roads may not put a smile on everyone's face, there is one road that always will: the road to home.
User avatar
James
Member
Posts: 505
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2002 17:54
Location: Gibraltar

Re: M1 J10-13 smart motorway upgrading

Post by James »

EpicChef wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 19:57
  • Removing the central lighting as it is hardly ever used anyway and is not compatible with an RCB.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. The RCB was only installed on sections where the lighting was replaced (around J11), else the original armco with removed lighting posts was left in

In these times I would expect a quick win option 1. Particually after spending ages doing the origianl project, they dont want to look silly with another 2-3 years of roadworks to rebuild the whole thing again.

Expect a RCB upgrade and resurfacing job and not much else.
User avatar
ManomayLR
Social Media Admin
Posts: 3331
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:47
Location: London, UK

Re: M1 J10-13 smart motorway upgrading

Post by ManomayLR »

James wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 20:45
EpicChef wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 19:57
  • Removing the central lighting as it is hardly ever used anyway and is not compatible with an RCB.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. The RCB was only installed on sections where the lighting was replaced (around J11), else the original armco with removed lighting posts was left in

In these times I would expect a quick win option 1. Particually after spending ages doing the origianl project, they dont want to look silly with another 2-3 years of roadworks to rebuild the whole thing again.

Expect a RCB upgrade and resurfacing job and not much else.
What I mean is the lighting In the central reserve and the plain steel central barriers.
We seem to be reaching a consensus about option 1.
Though roads may not put a smile on everyone's face, there is one road that always will: the road to home.
User avatar
ManomayLR
Social Media Admin
Posts: 3331
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:47
Location: London, UK

Re: M1 J10-13 smart motorway upgrading

Post by ManomayLR »

darkcape wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 22:27 No reason why the gantries and hard shoulder cameras need to be removed, more gantries means better control of traffic.

We discussed this a few years ago (I can't remember which thread) as HE were seriously studying options for conversion but it's all gone quiet. Something about poor clearances in LBS1 despite it being used as a dynamic running lane.
The old hard shoulder cameras can be used for faster detection of broken-down vehicles in lane 1. The ERAs are already quite close together so they just need picture signs and yellowing, but removing the redundant central barrier lighting and replacing the steel barrier with an RCB (rigid concrete barrier) will need to happen.
Though roads may not put a smile on everyone's face, there is one road that always will: the road to home.
User avatar
ManomayLR
Social Media Admin
Posts: 3331
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:47
Location: London, UK

Re: M1 J10-13 smart motorway upgrading

Post by ManomayLR »

They're already looking at a partial conversion option - the "Congestion Use hard shoulder" messages are only displayed when there is congestion but otherwise, the signs just say "Use hard shoulder". If they can keep the hard shoulder open at all times except if someone has broken down that will work as a temporary measure. And they can open the hard shoulder at 70mph with an NSL sign or green arrow pointing down over the hard shoulder and other lanes.

Here are two examples of what gantries could say. The first uses green arrows to open the hard shoulder and the second uses NSL signs. I made these myself.

Green arrow style:
HSR NSL GREEN arrow png.png
NSL sign style:
HSR at NSL with NSL signs.png
Though roads may not put a smile on everyone's face, there is one road that always will: the road to home.
Hdeng16
Member
Posts: 539
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2016 20:47

Re: M1 J10-13 smart motorway upgrading

Post by Hdeng16 »

I wonder if the green arrows would be a better way of showing all lanes are open in ALL ALR/HSR areas. Might stop the "scared of Lane 1" brigade?
User avatar
Chris5156
Deputy Treasurer
Posts: 16908
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: M1 J10-13 smart motorway upgrading

Post by Chris5156 »

Can those signals actually show the colour green? I thought they were a square panel of white/yellow LEDs with a ring of red LEDs. This is why the white NSL symbol is so small - it can only be shown within the relatively small area used for the numbers.
User avatar
ManomayLR
Social Media Admin
Posts: 3331
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:47
Location: London, UK

Re: M1 J10-13 smart motorway upgrading

Post by ManomayLR »

Chris5156 wrote: Fri Aug 17, 2018 17:57 Can those signals actually show the colour green? I thought they were a square panel of white/yellow LEDs with a ring of red LEDs. This is why the white NSL symbol is so small - it can only be shown within the relatively small area used for the numbers.
The signals are called AMI (Advanced Motorway Indicator).

There are 2 AMI model numbers: AMI 450 and AMI 460. AMI 450 can't display green arrows but AMI 460 can. I've emailed HE with a Freedom of Information request to find out which ones are used on the M1 10-13. So your (and my) question will be answered soon!

PS: FYI the request was made by me as an individual and does not mention SABRE.
Though roads may not put a smile on everyone's face, there is one road that always will: the road to home.
darkcape
Member
Posts: 2094
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 14:54

Re: M1 J10-13 smart motorway upgrading

Post by darkcape »

Chris5156 wrote: Fri Aug 17, 2018 17:57 Can those signals actually show the colour green? I thought they were a square panel of white/yellow LEDs with a ring of red LEDs. This is why the white NSL symbol is so small - it can only be shown within the relatively small area used for the numbers.
Don't forget they can also show red X's. I think it's just one LED matrix area - the sizing may be down to how the software plots it on the area?

On the other hand the only green I've seen on an AMI are the data lights at the bottom. 10-13 was so long ago now I doubt any newer version was installed.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
owen b
Member
Posts: 9861
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 15:22
Location: Luton

Re: M1 J10-13 smart motorway upgrading

Post by owen b »

The sooner the part time hard shoulder running motorway sections are converted to permanent all lane running the better in my view. At the very least, the lane signals should explicitly sign the hard shoulder with a red X when not in use as a running lane. Leaving the signs blank is not sufficient in my view. This morning on M1 J11-11a I saw a Dutch registered HGV using the hard shoulder which was not a running lane at the time.
Owen
Hdeng16
Member
Posts: 539
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2016 20:47

Re: M1 J10-13 smart motorway upgrading

Post by Hdeng16 »

And that’s my point really. I’m against smart motorways - I believe they’re unsafe. However, clearly that battle has been lost. The danger now comes from unauthorised use of the hard shoulder when ‘closed’.

All HSR sections should be switched ASAP to ALR. Consistency is the key and at least then you don’t end up with people using a close hard shoulder.

This means if you see a hard shoulder, it’s not a live lane.

I’d also look at removing some of the excessive and pointless barriers (random example: tibshelf unused services slips) so people have half a chance of getting to safety.
User avatar
Stevie D
Member
Posts: 8000
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 17:19
Location: Yorkshire

Re: M1 J10-13 smart motorway upgrading

Post by Stevie D »

Hdeng16 wrote: Fri Aug 17, 2018 16:27 I wonder if the green arrows would be a better way of showing all lanes are open in ALL ALR/HSR areas. Might stop the "scared of Lane 1" brigade?
I agree that the worst aspect of smart motorways is DHSR with worded signs. Even the roadside diagrammatic signs are not ideal. What is really needed is to have the gantry lane control signs used to show X over the hard shoulder all the time it is closed and arrows over all lanes including the hard shoulder when HSR is operational.

There is also the problem that fixed junction signs can then be incorrect, as they don't adapt to whether there is a lane-drop at the junction or not, which makes it more confusing for drivers and – on sections like the M42 that are packed with junctions – I can well understand why drivers are reluctant to get in a lane that might be whisking them off up a slip road at any time.

Converting them from DHSR to ALR would be preferable, but if that is not going to be done then they need to look at how to improve the clarity (and consistency) of the signage.
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: M1 J10-13 smart motorway upgrading

Post by Bryn666 »

I've always said the failure of DHSR is that the solid hard shoulder line was retained and there is no red X shown when normal conditions exist.

The Dutch Plus Lanes used hazard warning lines and continually lit red X signals when those weren't in use. Why we felt we had to reinvent the wheel is beyond me.

Also worded messages are a waste of time for foreign drivers.

Four upward arrows when a hard shoulder is open, showing the dividing line between 1 and 2.

Arrow 1 bends up left 45deg to show a lane drop ahead with distance shown beneath.

We already use the four arrow symbol for a merge arrangement.

Inconsistency in sign provision yet again has caused problems which otherwise would have been avoided. Slow clap.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
Johnathan404
Member
Posts: 11478
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 16:54

Re: M1 J10-13 smart motorway upgrading

Post by Johnathan404 »

Bryn666 wrote: Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:13 I've always said the failure of DHSR is that the solid hard shoulder line was retained and there is no red X shown when normal conditions exist.
I think you’re jumping too far ahead there - or more importantly, your strides are bigger than the DfT would ever have accepted.

The only benefit of DHSR is that it fails safe. This means that if there was a power cut or other fault, the M42 would revert to being the standard NSL D3M that it had been for 30 years previous. Even the idea of DHSR with a 60mph speed limit was a bold move in their eyes, so raising that and turning the electronics off would have been crazy.

This benefit has been lost for two reasons. Firstly we now know we are happy running a motorway under ALR and NSL with fewer safety features so it is no longer unchartered territory.

Secondly it turns out DHSR requires a red x when switched off with text reminders to ensure compliance, which means it doesn’t fail safe.
I have websites about: motorway services | Fareham
Post Reply