Road sign given Grade II listing

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Road sign given Grade II listing

Post by J--M--B »

Apologies if already posted

English Heritage
A rare surviving example of an early 20th century road traffic sign in Overstrand, Norfolk has been Grade II listed.

http://list.english-heritage.org.uk/res ... id=1405300
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Re: Road sign given Grade II listing

Post by si404 »

I assume this is the sign.
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Re: Road sign given Grade II listing

Post by SC2 »

I don't like it how they've stuck some stupid neighborhood watch sign on it.

Does anyone think this will mean surviving post 1933 PW signs will be listed in future?
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Re: Road sign given Grade II listing

Post by Chris5156 »

Is it even complete? I'd hazard a guess that it once had a panel on it, the red circle signifying a restriction or mandatory instruction - presumably this was a speed limit sign.
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Re: Road sign given Grade II listing

Post by J N Winkler »

Chris5156 wrote:Is it even complete? I'd hazard a guess that it once had a panel on it, the red circle signifying a restriction or mandatory instruction - presumably this was a speed limit sign.
I was under the impression that regulatory signs (which were not introduced until the 1933 Maybury report since such signs, by and large, had no legal meaning until the Road Traffic Act 1930) had a red ring. I wonder if this sign was erected under the provisions of the 1904 circular issued by the Local Government Board.
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Re: Road sign given Grade II listing

Post by Nicholas »

swarkestonecauseway wrote:Does anyone think this will mean surviving post 1933 PW signs will be listed in future?
We can only wish, but it would cause an interesting legal cross-over, as these should be removed according to government policy!

It would need someone to persuade English Heritage to consider this, which would mean EH persuading the government to allow them to remain... as we already know, the government has no intention of changing its policy - and when I emailed EH around the same time as I emailed the DfT, well, I'm still awaiting a response of any sort from them.

So, unfortunately I wouldn't hold your breath.
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Re: Road sign given Grade II listing

Post by Bryn666 »

Despite what the DfT have previously said there is no real sanction for leaving pre-Worboys signs in situ.
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Re: Road sign given Grade II listing

Post by SC2 »

Does the legal issue not apply to this sign though, given it isn't a 'sign' in the legal sense?
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Re: Road sign given Grade II listing

Post by kit »

Chris5156 wrote:Is it even complete? I'd hazard a guess that it once had a panel on it, the red circle signifying a restriction or mandatory instruction - presumably this was a speed limit sign.
English Heritage explain on their site: -
Although some of the earliest known traffic warning signs were introduced in the mid-C19 by an organisation called the 'Bicycle Union', it was not until the 1903 Motor Car Act that legislative power was provided to allow local authorities to erect their own signs. The subsequent circular of 1904 specified a standard design of either a hollow red triangle - indicating a hazard, a solid red disc - indicating a prohibition, or a hollow white ring - indicating a speed limit.

The red disc, known as a 'prohibition disc', signified that no motor vehicle was to pass beyond the sign. This is the equivalent of the present day 'No Entry' sign which is still based upon the red disc. Many highways authorities felt that in addition to the sign it was sometimes necessary to provide a simple narrative to make clear exactly what was prohibited. Subsidiary plates were therefore added below the disc to indicate, for example, that vehicles above a certain weight or height were prohibited. It was not until 1933, however, that the standardisation of these instruction plates was set out in the road traffic regulations. The earliest versions of these signs were decorative in their design, with ring detailing on the post, and the disc curving at its base to form a decorative post cap. By the 1920s the design had been simplified as the requirement for more signs increased the production costs. Only a few hundred of these signs were ever erected, most of which remained in place until the 1930s.

The exact date of when this sign was erected is unknown, but it seems most likely that it was erected between 1904 and 1919 to prohibit motor vehicles from passing down the narrow coast road that leads onto the beach.
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Re: Road sign given Grade II listing

Post by Patrick Harper »

I just cannot understand all these grade listing businesses. If an item is removed, replaced or moved according to public need or want, than rarity or vintageness does not need to come into the equation as anything could be the above. Being from the early 20th century does not grant this sign special rights to remain in its position today. If it is not useful or wanted than it ought to be removed and recycled.
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Re: Road sign given Grade II listing

Post by dragonv480 »

Paspie wrote:I just cannot understand all these grade listing businesses. If an item is removed, replaced or moved according to public need or want, than rarity or vintageness does not need to come into the equation as anything could be the above. Being from the early 20th century does not grant this sign special rights to remain in its position today. If it is not useful or wanted than it ought to be removed and recycled.
Well I guess this sign passes your "wanted" test. So it's all OK.
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Re: Road sign given Grade II listing

Post by J--M--B »

Paspie wrote:I just cannot understand all these grade listing businesses. If an item is removed, replaced or moved according to public need or want, than rarity or vintageness does not need to come into the equation as anything could be the above. Being from the early 20th century does not grant this sign special rights to remain in its position today. If it is not useful or wanted than it ought to be removed and recycled.
They come in useful when some work is done in the area or there is a planning application. The listing will be seen and then they can take appropriate action to protect.

There was a suggestion to list or schedule all war memorials, this was because many are on or inside buildings and have been lost when buildings have been demolished or had work done on them. The presence of the war memorial would be noted when the planning application is received and it must be something added to consent that the memorial is put somewhere safe and fixed on the new building or a suitable home found for it.
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Re: Road sign given Grade II listing

Post by Patrick Harper »

dragonv480 wrote:
Paspie wrote:I just cannot understand all these grade listing businesses. If an item is removed, replaced or moved according to public need or want, than rarity or vintageness does not need to come into the equation as anything could be the above. Being from the early 20th century does not grant this sign special rights to remain in its position today. If it is not useful or wanted than it ought to be removed and recycled.
Well I guess this sign passes your "wanted" test. So it's all OK.
How many people truly care for this sign?
J--M--B wrote:
Paspie wrote:I just cannot understand all these grade listing businesses. If an item is removed, replaced or moved according to public need or want, than rarity or vintageness does not need to come into the equation as anything could be the above. Being from the early 20th century does not grant this sign special rights to remain in its position today. If it is not useful or wanted than it ought to be removed and recycled.
They come in useful when some work is done in the area or there is a planning application. The listing will be seen and then they can take appropriate action to protect.

There was a suggestion to list or schedule all war memorials, this was because many are on or inside buildings and have been lost when buildings have been demolished or had work done on them. The presence of the war memorial would be noted when the planning application is received and it must be something added to consent that the memorial is put somewhere safe and fixed on the new building or a suitable home found for it.
Why does it need protection?
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Re: Road sign given Grade II listing

Post by Thryduulf »

Because we need to protect some of our heritage if we don't want to lose it forever - how many other signs are there still from this era?
It may not be very old yet in comparison to say a stately home, but this listing will keep it around so that it will get to that age.
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Re: Road sign given Grade II listing

Post by Nicholas »

Thryduulf wrote:Because we need to protect some of our heritage if we don't want to lose it forever - how many other signs are there still from this era?
It may not be very old yet in comparison to say a stately home, but this listing will keep it around so that it will get to that age.
Paspie, there's a reason why things are things are listed or protected. You'd be surprised to see that this building is listed, despite being 43 years old and being downright ugly on the outside and dingy on the inside! Yet, it is listed due to its "innovative architectural design".

So you'd rather see every Pre-Warboys sign and fingerpost sign removed because its old? Its like the removal of redundant red telephone boxes, local communities are buying them because they are seen as important to the village's heritage even though they are of no use to anybody.
Paspie wrote:How many people truly care for this sign?
Paspie wrote:Why does it need protection?
As a road enthusiast, do you really need to ask these questions?
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Re: Road sign given Grade II listing

Post by Chris5156 »

Nicholas wrote:
Thryduulf wrote:Because we need to protect some of our heritage if we don't want to lose it forever - how many other signs are there still from this era?
It may not be very old yet in comparison to say a stately home, but this listing will keep it around so that it will get to that age.
Paspie, there's a reason why things are things are listed or protected. You'd be surprised to see that this building is listed, despite being 43 years old and being downright ugly on the outside and dingy on the inside! Yet, it is listed due to its "innovative architectural design".
FWIW, I rather like that design, and it would look better and less incongruous if the local council hadn't insisted on "heritage" streetlights in front of such a modernist building.
Paspie wrote:How many people truly care for this sign?
Paspie wrote:Why does it need protection?
I imagine plenty do. Somebody in that town must, to have had it listed. I do. I'd like to see it still there long after I'm gone.

And who is to say whether people a hundred years from now will care about it? If none of these signs are left they won't even have the chance to decide.

I understand you like to think of things from an anarchic point of view but to just ask whether something is useful right now is utilitarian and dull. The things that bring joy in life are rarely useful.
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Re: Road sign given Grade II listing

Post by Nicholas »

Chris5156 wrote:FWIW, I rather like that design, and it would look better and less incongruous if the local council hadn't insisted on "heritage" streetlights in front of such a modernist building.
You are the first person I have come across that likes that building! The street lights have gone, having been replaced in November by the new Philips SpeedStar LED lights.
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Re: Road sign given Grade II listing

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Nicholas wrote:
Chris5156 wrote:FWIW, I rather like that design, and it would look better and less incongruous if the local council hadn't insisted on "heritage" streetlights in front of such a modernist building.
You are the first person I have come across that likes that building! The street lights have gone, having been replaced in November by the new Philips SpeedStar LED lights.
I think I'm unusual in finding modernist and brutalist architecture quite palatable. I'm not saying it's beautiful or that I'd necessarily like to see lots more of them built, but I can see why it might be worth preserving.
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Re: Road sign given Grade II listing

Post by rhyds »

I strongly disagree with the whole "listing" process ever since a friend's place was listed without their prior knowledge or consent. Someone popped in "have a look" (happens quite often with said building) with no ID or similar and then a few months later they get a letter through the post saying that their house is now listed and what they can and can't do to the place is to be decided by the Welsh equivalent of English Heritage (CADW).

Thing is, why should a government department tell the owner of a building what they can and can't do with it beyond the legal minimums? If the local populace want a building retained how it is then let them discuss the matter with the building owner, if said owner wants to do something different with his/her property then so be it.
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Re: Road sign given Grade II listing

Post by J--M--B »

Nicholas wrote:
Chris5156 wrote:FWIW, I rather like that design, and it would look better and less incongruous if the local council hadn't insisted on "heritage" streetlights in front of such a modernist building.
You are the first person I have come across that likes that building! The street lights have gone, having been replaced in November by the new Philips SpeedStar LED lights.
It's actually not too bad looking for a building of that type and period. One problem with modern buildings that are listed is that architects tend to build buildings to impress each other and give them awards even though often just downright ugly, overbudget as well as frequently poorly designed and built with perhaps the Edinburgh parliament building being a good example.
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