B2036 Incomplete old straightening works?

[jervi]

I was just looking for walking routes and discovered that the B2036 has some weird bend outside the apparent highway alignment.
Between Brook Street and Balcombe there are some odd earthworks and boundaries beside the road and may of been for a larger bridge over the river Ouse (although has never been navigable beyond the London-Brighton Railway), as well as making the horizonal alignment better while keeping the vertical alignment not too steep.
Looking at old maps it happened at some point between 1912 and 1956.

- 1950s/1960s 1:2.5k OS

B2036.PNG (39.41 KiB) Viewed 10194 times

- 1:25k today OS

Just as a note the B2036 is a very good B road for its age, although it doesn't carry much traffic (4k AADT), in comparison the C-class road the other side of the railway carries 6k AADT and has a much worse alignment. Before the A23 was duelled I presume using the B2036 was a popular alternative (both the north and southern ends on the B2036 are on the A23 at Pyecome and Horley) which explains why it has such a smooth alignment and wide highway boundaries.

Looking at data from Crash Map over the past 21 years there has been 17 crashes recorded, with 1 being fatal and 5 serious in just the section around the bends, and there are snificantly more crashes there than on the rest of the route between Cuckfield & Balcome

[Steven]

Looking at old maps it happened at some point between 1912 and 1956.

Have you tried looking at SABRE Maps? There's a lot more One Inch mapping than on Old Maps, and that may well assist you in pinning this date down a little.

[SouthWest Philip]

Abandoned road straightening scheme maybe? Your timeframes suggest the war could have got in the way.

[Truvelo]

I would assume there was a plan at some point to reroute the A23 via Three Bridges, Balcombe, Cuckfield, Burgess Hill and Hassocks. The cutting for the realigned bends looks wide enough for D2 and no way would this be done for a B road unless there was an intention for it to become more important. The distance for this route compared to the A23 at the time is about the same and it would avoid Crawley.

[jervi]

Looking at old maps it happened at some point between 1912 and 1956.

Have you tried looking at SABRE Maps? There's a lot more One Inch mapping than on Old Maps, and that may well assist you in pinning this date down a little.

I had a look but since the carriageway has remained in the same location, all the maps look the same.

Abandoned road straightening scheme maybe? Your timeframes suggest the war could have got in the way.

Potentially that could be it.

I would assume there was a plan at some point to reroute the A23 via Three Bridges, Balcombe, Cuckfield, Burgess Hill and Hassocks. The cutting for the realigned bends looks wide enough for D2 and no way would this be done for a B road unless there was an intention for it to become more important. The distance for this route compared to the A23 at the time is about the same and it would avoid Crawley.

This could very much be true, although I've never seen any written evidence of it, as I said above it is very well built for its age, and is certainly better than most of the A272. Once restrictions are lifted I might go to the local achieves and see if I can find anything of interest. Much of it does feel wide enough for a dual carriageway once you cut back the vegetation. - I measured it to be about 30m which is about a typical width of a D2 from the time.

Also I've had a look along the rest of the route and it appears like some similar highway boundaries extended out from the edge for a suspiciously wide highway.
South of Balcombe
Through Balcombe - I imagine houses along the western side would be demolished to make way, as well as a widened/new railway bridge
North of Balcombe - This part of the B2036 has been rebuilt, so now the local properties are on a service road. Oldmaps showing between the 1960s and 1980s revisions
Further North of Balcombe - Here the map shows new boundaries on both sides of the road. On the eastern side this boundary no longer exists on the ground and did contain two dwellings, the boundary on the western side is remains but has become woodland. It appears that maybe 16 dwellings would of been demolished, although these are likely were council houses so would of been easier to remove than private ones.
The odd boundaries continue intermittently north, all the way to the A23 at Horley. South of Cuckfield there doesn't appear to be any widened highway boundaries.

[Ross Spur]

There were notices under the Restriction of Ribbon Development Act 1935 in Sussex newspapers in March and September 1945 for a proposed diversion north of Brook Street from 260 yards north-east of the junction with Pilstye Lane, UC.807 to 300 yards south of that junction. Widths stated were 120 feet and 140 feet. It was a scheme of the County Council of East Sussex and approved by Ministry of Transport.

Since it mentioned "proposed" it points to post war but I've not come across any reports about work starting or stopping.

Balcombe Parish Council called the section "Pilstye Bends" in its 2012 minutes re drainage works and road closure https://balcombeparishcouncil.files.wor ... l-2012.pdf

It's a bit of a mystery.

Ian

[jervi]

There were notices under the Restriction of Ribbon Development Act 1935 in Sussex newspapers in March and September 1945 for a proposed diversion north of Brook Street from 260 yards north-east of the junction with Pilstye Lane, UC.807 to 300 yards south of that junction. Widths stated were 120 feet and 140 feet. It was a scheme of the County Council of East Sussex and approved by Ministry of Transport.

Since it mentioned "proposed" it points to post war but I've not come across any reports about work starting or stopping.

Balcombe Parish Council called the section "Pilstye Bends" in its 2012 minutes re drainage works and road closure https://balcombeparishcouncil.files.wor ... l-2012.pdf

Good finds.
From the wording of the junction of Pilstye Lane, it sounds like it is the junction to the south, not the one at the bends. (TQ 30624 27553 / -0.1385,51.033) Since the road there is in a NE & S direction, rather than the N & SW direction of the junction at the bends (in the OP). Also the bends/junction in the OP are across the parish boundary into Balcome, so I doubt the road here is called "Brook Street" like it called in Cuckfield Rural (now known as Ansty & Staplefield). Blue Xs are where I measured it from. This would of smoothened out the alignment over the stream as well a potentially moving the dwellings onto a service road and making the junction with Pilstye Lane (Cherry Lane) much safer.

[Ross Spur]

From the wording of the junction of Pilstye Lane, it sounds like it is the junction to the south, not the one at the bends.

That makes sense... I'd just seen the lane going to Pilstye Farm and didn't check the directions. The notices do say it is in the parish of Cuckfield Rural. Notices could be inspected at County Hall, Lewes.

Ian

[jervi]

Also as an interest piece, when the M23 was built it accommodated the B2036 with two-span bridges to allow for future dualing.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.15946 ... 312!8i6656 - M23 Spur
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.13238 ... 384!8i8192 - A2011 (built at the same time as the M23), so clearly there was still appetite for the B2036 to become a DC even after the M23 was built in 1975.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.11043 ... 384!8i8192 - Although when the Maidenbower neighbourhood was built in the 1990s the B2036 wasn't given enough room to be dualled (although no structures are backing onto the road, or any direct access onto the road, so is still feasible to dual when required with CPO).

[M1keA]

Apols for resurrecting an oldish post

The alignment around St Marys in Balcombe was done after Oct 1931; - in this video - https://www.britishpathe.com/video/the-royal-wedding-1 there are huge crowds on the bank opposite the church at around 1:20, and that bank doesn't exist today.

I'm hoping to look at some files this week but the concrete section N from here - https://goo.gl/maps/w8CxCH9gJWa1FLFeA, was likely done in the Summer of 1939. It's very visible in Luftwaffe aerial photos from 1940, so I'm fairly sure it wasn't upgraded by Canadian forces, as local lore has it.

And this was a Turnpike road with toll houses S of the Cowdray Arms and N of the Whitemans Green junction in Cuckfield

[WHBM]

Abandoned road straightening scheme maybe? Your timeframes suggest the war could have got in the way.

Or maybe the war only partially got in the way ... there are various north-south secondary and minor roads all along the south coast which have width and alignment well above that expected. These were commonly widened, or partially widened, for military movements, that were often done rapidly and then given up as emphasis moved elsewhere. Quite an amount was done by American troops during the 1942-44 period when increasing numbers were in the country. A scheme proposed in September 1945, as described, would likely be to make use of works which had been started but not finished.

B2141 from Harting towards Chichester is like a trunk A road in parts, for width, alignment, verges etc, and even some oxbow lay-bys, but elsewhere remains narrow and twisting.

[KeithW]

The new alignment was clearly shown on the 1948 OS 1:25000 map but not on the Popular edition

On the 6 inch maps the road is shown as much wider and very close to the church. My suspicion would be that noise and vibration of motor traffic was the reason for the narrowing/realignment, the Denman's who lived in nearby Balcombe Place were very well connected. Lord Denman had been Governor General of Australia for a while.

In WW2 Balcombe Place was the HQ of British Womens Land Army.

[M1keA]

In WW2 Balcombe Place was the HQ of British Womens Land Army.

And in Oct 1940 came very close to being taken out - https://www.wingsmuseum.co.uk/our-work/ ... ter-r2065/

[jervi]

The new alignment was clearly shown on the 1948 OS 1:25000 map but not on the Popular edition

On the 6 inch maps the road is shown as much wider and very close to the church. My suspicion would be that noise and vibration of motor traffic was the reason for the narrowing/realignment, the Denman's who lived in nearby Balcombe Place were very well connected. Lord Denman had been Governor General of Australia for a while.

In WW2 Balcombe Place was the HQ of British Womens Land Army.

The diverted section outside the church doesn't feel like it is pre-50s (if that is what you are suggesting). I think the map you have attached there is just showing the highway boundaries, rather than the actual carriageway's position.

The carriageway realignment outside of the church and into the valley I thought was done in the 80s/90s, and if you have ever driven it, it feels relatively new. I think the maps I saw from the 70s shows the carriageway in the same place as before, and not yet moved. (these maps were on old-maps.org , which is no longer publicly accessible)

Looking at the road and service roads you can tell it wasn't realigned until the 80s or 90s.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.06313 ... 312!8i6656.
Looking at the service road today you can see remains of old centre lines & cats eyes. I doubt this B road would of had these in the 40s. The junction with Redbridge Lane also have a right turning pocket, I doubt this would of been provided in the 40s, and doesn't show signs of retrospective widening.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.06712 ... 384!8i8192
The service road provided a little further up the road again shows this is not from the 40s, no way would they have provided a segregated service road here.

[M1keA]

The carriageway realignment outside of the church and into the valley I thought was done in the 80s/90s, and if you have ever driven it, it feels relatively new. I think the maps I saw from the 70s shows the carriageway in the same place as before, and not yet moved. (these maps were on old-maps.org , which is no longer publicly accessible)

Looking at the road and service roads you can tell it wasn't realigned until the 80s or 90s.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.06313 ... 312!8i6656.
Looking at the service road today you can see remains of old centre lines & cats eyes. I doubt this B road would of had these in the 40s. The junction with Redbridge Lane also have a right turning pocket, I doubt this would of been provided in the 40s, and doesn't show signs of retrospective widening.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.06712 ... 384!8i8192
The service road provided a little further up the road again shows this is not from the 40s, no way would they have provided a segregated service road here.

I'm sure I can remember what is the current alignment being there in the 70s and can make enquiries. This 1947 AP shows the alignment Keith linked to

Got lucky yesterday and here's the plan of the proposed straightening that Ross Spur mentioned

Annoyingly there wasn't anything regarding the works and resurfacing further north, which I still feel were 1939. - There are still a few concrete roads in Haywards Heath and I'm fairly confident they're all just pre war.

Oh and a final Brucie Bonus. Here's the Pilstye Bends before the turnpike was built. You can see the B2036 has been pencilled on sometime in the past 200 years

[jervi]

I'm sure I can remember what is the current alignment being there in the 70s and can make enquiries. This 1947 AP shows the alignment Keith linked to10 April 1947 Balcombe St Marys.JPG

Got lucky yesterday and here's the plan of the proposed straightening that Ross mentioned MA5D3-0082.jpgAnnoyingly there wasn't anything regarding the works and resurfacing further north, which I still feel were 1939. - There are still a few concrete roads in Haywards Heath and I'm fairly confident they're all just pre war.

Oh and a final Brucie Bonus. Here's the Pilstye Bends before the turnpike was built. You can see the B2036 has been pencilled on sometime in the past 200 yearsMA5D3-1828_1.jpg

In the 47 aerial image you attached it only shows the widening of the highway boundary, and maybe some earth works, but as far as I can see no actual carriageway realignment works. The road could of been realigned in or before the 70s as you say, I wasn't alive at that time. Just using the road layout style and features I'd date it as being from the 80s for reasons in last post, but I could be wrong.

The other finds are interesting. I never knew or assumed that that B2036 north of Pilstye Bends was a new road. The old field boundaries have completely changed so the road looks it follows a historical alignment of boundaries. In comparison, you can tell the A272 between Bolney & Cowfold was built as a tollpike in the past 200 years as you can still identify how fields were laid out before the run cut through them.

Its easy to see why the new alignment was built though, I've cycled along Cherry Lane a few times and it has some steep sections, especially heading into Balcombe, with some tight bends along the road too.

[M1keA]

In the 47 aerial image you attached it only shows the widening of the highway boundary, and maybe some earth works, but as far as I can see no actual carriageway realignment works. The road could of been realigned in or before the 70s as you say, I wasn't alive at that time. Just using the road layout style and features I'd date it as being from the 80s for reasons in last post, but I could be wrong.

The other finds are interesting. I never knew or assumed that that B2036 north of Pilstye Bends was a new road. The old field boundaries have completely changed so the road looks it follows a historical alignment of boundaries. In comparison, you can tell the A272 between Bolney & Cowfold was built as a tollpike in the past 200 years as you can still identify how fields were laid out before the run cut through them. A272_1.PNG
Its easy to see why the new alignment was built though, I've cycled along Cherry Lane a few times and it has some steep sections, especially heading into Balcombe, with some tight bends along the road too.

Yes Rocks lane isn't fun to pedal up and some of the footpaths around there are pretty steep as well. I've heard the B2036 called the 'new road' which is ironic as it's still over 200 years old.

Re field boundaries, I'd be slightly cautious and check as many sources as possible. For instance, that A/T pillbox visible in the field S of Pilstye farm - https://goo.gl/maps/mohQYgo19KMb29kh7, wasn't built in the middle of a field.

[Bryn666]

The carriageway realignment outside of the church and into the valley I thought was done in the 80s/90s, and if you have ever driven it, it feels relatively new. I think the maps I saw from the 70s shows the carriageway in the same place as before, and not yet moved. (these maps were on old-maps.org , which is no longer publicly accessible)

Looking at the road and service roads you can tell it wasn't realigned until the 80s or 90s.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.06313 ... 312!8i6656.
Looking at the service road today you can see remains of old centre lines & cats eyes. I doubt this B road would of had these in the 40s. The junction with Redbridge Lane also have a right turning pocket, I doubt this would of been provided in the 40s, and doesn't show signs of retrospective widening.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.06712 ... 384!8i8192
The service road provided a little further up the road again shows this is not from the 40s, no way would they have provided a segregated service road here.

I'm sure I can remember what is the current alignment being there in the 70s and can make enquiries. This 1947 AP shows the alignment Keith linked to10 April 1947 Balcombe St Marys.JPG

Got lucky yesterday and here's the plan of the proposed straightening that Ross Spur mentioned MA5D3-0082.jpgAnnoyingly there wasn't anything regarding the works and resurfacing further north, which I still feel were 1939. - There are still a few concrete roads in Haywards Heath and I'm fairly confident they're all just pre war.

Oh and a final Brucie Bonus. Here's the Pilstye Bends before the turnpike was built. You can see the B2036 has been pencilled on sometime in the past 200 yearsMA5D3-1828_1.jpg

That's a find and a half. Nice work!

[M1keA]

Sorry for reopening this old thread again but I have some updates.

The laying of concrete towards Balcombe station is mentioned in this March 1939 Mid Sussex Times report -

I thought I'd seen refs to programmed road closures but can't find them now but have to presume the work was started early in the new year?

And a chap from Balcombe History Society has advised that the realignment around the church was done in the 50s. Unfortunately the British Newspaper Archive only has copies of the Mid Sussex Times up to 1945 so I can't check further.