End of restrictions signs

[Lockwood]

The A1 restrictions and the comment about there being no end of restrictions sign in the botched roadsigns thread made me think.

I think I've asked a similar question but with less detail and got a "don't be so silly" type reply.

Weight gets an end sign. I guess that's a warning that you can meet HGVs again.

Clearway and parking zones get an end sign. You can now stop.

Don't park on pavement signs get one. You can now park.

Width don't get an end sign. Is this because if you are 7' you aren't going along that road, so don't need to know when to stop being 6'6"? But you do get told when you are allowed to be 7.5t again.

Height doesn't get an end sign. Once you pass that bridge, you're probably clear of the restriction. Or is there another bridge further up? If you have a junction between the bridges it needs resigning, if not then there is no point. So this one gets a pass from a logic point of view.

No pedestrians, no cycles, no animals, no horse drawn vehicles, no motorcycles under 50cc - never seen an end sign for these.

No vehicles except pedal cycles being pushed - don't tend to see ends for these either. End of pedestrian zone, which incorporates that, yes. End of standalone sign - no.


What is it that says "Restriction X gets a start and end. Restriction Y only needs a start"?

[Bryn666]

TSM 3 tells you thus:

5.19 The sign to diagram 622.2 is used to indicate the termination of the restriction signed by diagram 622.1A. There is no specific requirement to provide end of restriction signs and they would have little value where there are no exceptions to the goods vehicle prohibition. However, where there are exceptions, for example to allow loading, it is helpful to the driver to know where the restriction ends and hence where it becomes lawful to park the vehicle in an appropriate place (for purposes other than loading) without contravening the order.

-----

The reason why other signs lack End plates or equivalents is because there is no value in telling you the restriction ends, pedestrian zones have end signs because they usually cancel out loading and waiting restrictions as well as warn pedestrians that standing in a carriageway would be a distinctively poor life decision beyond it.

You don't need to be told a bridge has ended, it's obvious. Likewise a no motor vehicles sign for a side road, once you've passed the entry sign you're committed so either you should be there or you shouldn't. It's irrelevant where the restriction ends in that situation and the corresponding entry signs cancel it out - the offence is passing the sign in the first place, not being ten miles beyond it.

[Lockwood]

I disagree on the pedestrian and bicycles one - in some places.

I'll use this as my nearest example. Hindhead tunnel. There's a restriction on pedestrians, cyclists, animals, horse drawn vehicles, motorcycles under 50cc from Hindhead NB and Thursley SB.

As a motorized vehicle user, I know that I am less likely to encounter these vulnerable road users beyond that point. An end of restriction sign may not help the cyclist that should not be cycling there directly, but it helps other people know that there is now more likelihood of encountering these road users. (Ok, the cyclists usually come off before those junctions anyway).

Taking that stretch again... The layby immediately outside of the tunnel - I can't stop there and stretch my legs after being sat in a car for a while. The one further up that had a dead bus parked in it for six months, I can. But there's not been any sign to say "by the way, that restriction is over". Logically it is - I have passed the tunnel and another junction. But from a very blinkered view, you have been told not to do something and not later been told "yeah, you can do that now".


I get that this would also cause a lot of sign clutter, but if the A1 "No JCB" sign is viewed as partially botched for having no "No No JCB" sign then other signs without an end are also slightly botchy?


Another solution would be to use a For xxx yards plate on some of these restrictions, or "Until end of tunnel", "until next junction", "until roundabout" or similar. Makes it clear what the extent of the restriction is, let's you know exactly when the restricted users are allowed to come back.

[Bryn666]

Or we could just use the European car symbol for such sub-motorway roads, that has an end sign...

The A55 has "end of prohibitions" signs incidentally on its secret motorway section.

[MotorwayGuy]

No cycling/pedestrians in theory could do with end signs because passengers can alight from vehicles, but all the examples I can think of are on roads with stopping restrictions anyway so you'd be breaking that restriction. Of course if traffic is held up, people might decide to get out and walk if their destination is not far, but the presence of such signs is unlikely to have much influence in such a case anyway.

[Herned]

I was wondering about 20mph zones outside schools - the ones which are only in place when lights flash. They have no termination signs, so how far does the limit apply for?

[Isleworth1961]

I was wondering about 20mph zones outside schools - the ones which are only in place when lights flash. They have no termination signs, so how far does the limit apply for?

It seems that some do, some don't. Two different schools near me have 20 limits when flashing lights are on, one has '20 zone end' signs, the other doesn't. The signage is different at each school - one has 20 in a black ring on entry (and this has termination signs), the other doesn't have the black ring or termination signs.

[Herned]

It seems that some do, some don't. Two different schools near me have 20 limits when flashing lights are on, one has '20 zone end' signs, the other doesn't. The signage is different at each school - one has 20 in a black ring on entry (and this has termination signs), the other doesn't have the black ring or termination signs.

That's interesting, there's definitely none around here. Weird that it's not mandatory to have a termination sign (possibly it is and my local council are skint though)

[Bryn666]

Advisory limits don't have a cancellation - presumably the end of the hazard is left to your observational skills.

Here's a completely needless "End" sign:

[freebrickproductions]

It seems that some do, some don't. Two different schools near me have 20 limits when flashing lights are on, one has '20 zone end' signs, the other doesn't. The signage is different at each school - one has 20 in a black ring on entry (and this has termination signs), the other doesn't have the black ring or termination signs.

That's interesting, there's definitely none around here. Weird that it's not mandatory to have a termination sign (possibly it is and my local council are skint though)

I know here in the US, terminal signs for the school zones are mandatory, but the school speed limits are also very much regulatory over here.

[darkcape]

The usual rule of thumb for height, width & pedestrian/vehicular restrictions is once you pass a side road or junction where some of that banned traffic could theoretically join, you should drive & assume as such unless you see the restrictions signed again.

[Isleworth1961]

Advisory limits don't have a cancellation - presumably the end of the hazard is left to your observational skills.

So what is the definition of these? Advisory? Mandatory?

In both directions, the "20 zone ends" is only on the reverse of the "20 when lights show" sign - there is no "20 zone ends" sign on your own side of the road. It's not as if there is any obvious reason a sign could not be placed there.

There are frequently speed camera vans operating along this stretch of road when the lights are on.

[Nathan_A_RF]

Unless the speed limit is a number inside a red ring, it's advisory.

[Bryn666]

Advisory limits don't have a cancellation - presumably the end of the hazard is left to your observational skills.

So what is the definition of these? Advisory? Mandatory?
20mph when lights show.JPG
In both directions, the "20 zone ends" is only on the reverse of the "20 when lights show" sign - there is no "20 zone ends" sign on your own side of the road. It's not as if there is any obvious reason a sign could not be placed there.
20 zone ends.JPG



There are frequently speed camera vans operating along this stretch of road when the lights are on.

The definition of those is totally non-prescribed and "wtf were they playing at"!

[Isleworth1961]

Unless the speed limit is a number inside a red ring, it's advisory.

That's what I thought (but then, some might argue otherwise...).

[Chris56000]

For want of a silly question, can anyone suggest why small green primary "End of Restrictions" signs were not provided at the exits/terminal points of the A90 A.W.P.R., given that the special section of the A1 between the A720 Edinburgh Bypass and Thistly Cross Roundabout west of Dunbar has them, altho' with a blue background on the A1 signage?

As fas as I can tell the same regulations are in force for both these sections of Special Road!

Chris Williams

[Vierwielen]

I disagree on the pedestrian and bicycles one - in some places.

I'll use this as my nearest example. Hindhead tunnel. There's a restriction on pedestrians, cyclists, animals, horse drawn vehicles, motorcycles under 50cc from Hindhead NB and Thursley SB.

As a motorized vehicle user, I know that I am less likely to encounter these vulnerable road users beyond that point. An end of restriction sign may not help the cyclist that should not be cycling there directly, but it helps other people know that there is now more likelihood of encountering these road users. (Ok, the cyclists usually come off before those junctions anyway).

Taking that stretch again... The layby immediately outside of the tunnel - I can't stop there and stretch my legs after being sat in a car for a while. The one further up that had a dead bus parked in it for six months, I can. But there's not been any sign to say "by the way, that restriction is over". Logically it is - I have passed the tunnel and another junction. But from a very blinkered view, you have been told not to do something and not later been told "yeah, you can do that now".


I get that this would also cause a lot of sign clutter, but if the A1 "No JCB" sign is viewed as partially botched for having no "No No JCB" sign then other signs without an end are also slightly botchy?


Another solution would be to use a For xxx yards plate on some of these restrictions, or "Until end of tunnel", "until next junction", "until roundabout" or similar. Makes it clear what the extent of the restriction is, let's you know exactly when the restricted users are allowed to come back.

I assume that you are travelling southwards. About 700 metres after you exit the tunnel. you go under a bridge and anothrer 300 metres further on you will be joined by a slip road on your left. Horses, pedestrians, cyclists, Uncle Tom Cobberly and all are allowed to use the slip road to join the A3. SInce they have not been subject to a prohibition sign, there is no need to cancel the prohibition sign.

[jnty]

I disagree on the pedestrian and bicycles one - in some places.

I'll use this as my nearest example. Hindhead tunnel. There's a restriction on pedestrians, cyclists, animals, horse drawn vehicles, motorcycles under 50cc from Hindhead NB and Thursley SB.

As a motorized vehicle user, I know that I am less likely to encounter these vulnerable road users beyond that point. An end of restriction sign may not help the cyclist that should not be cycling there directly, but it helps other people know that there is now more likelihood of encountering these road users. (Ok, the cyclists usually come off before those junctions anyway).

Taking that stretch again... The layby immediately outside of the tunnel - I can't stop there and stretch my legs after being sat in a car for a while. The one further up that had a dead bus parked in it for six months, I can. But there's not been any sign to say "by the way, that restriction is over". Logically it is - I have passed the tunnel and another junction. But from a very blinkered view, you have been told not to do something and not later been told "yeah, you can do that now".


I get that this would also cause a lot of sign clutter, but if the A1 "No JCB" sign is viewed as partially botched for having no "No No JCB" sign then other signs without an end are also slightly botchy?


Another solution would be to use a For xxx yards plate on some of these restrictions, or "Until end of tunnel", "until next junction", "until roundabout" or similar. Makes it clear what the extent of the restriction is, let's you know exactly when the restricted users are allowed to come back.

I assume that you are travelling southwards. About 700 metres after you exit the tunnel. you go under a bridge and anothrer 300 metres further on you will be joined by a slip road on your left. Horses, pedestrians, cyclists, Uncle Tom Cobberly and all are allowed to use the slip road to join the A3. SInce they have not been subject to a prohibition sign, there is no need to cancel the prohibition sign.

In fairness, there could be a prohibition sign at the top of the slip, invisible from the mainline. That's where they usually are. But the prohibition is clearly just for the tunnel, the sign almost says as much. The signs purpose is to get those users off the road prior to the tunnel, so there's no need to cancel it because they won't be there to see it. It's not a message to other road users to drive differently because those road users won't be there, and to be honest you're probably not much less likely to see an errant cyclist in the tunnel as you are a legal cyclist anywhere else on the A3.