M2/A2/A299 Brenley Corner - HE promising improvements

[roadtester]

That cuts both ways - maybe the A299 was comparatively more important when holidaymakers would head to the North Kent coast rather than the Med? Not to mention that it will have been planned to take into account changes to the network over coming decades.

Brenley Corner is on the Kent and Medway Economic Partnership's wishlist: http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kent-busine ... ad-119397/

I suppose the alternative explanation is that it was laid out to flow into a possible offline upgrade of the A2 intended to run to the northern side of the current routing between Brenley Corner and Canterbury.

FWIW I'm pretty sure most people thought of the A2/M2 as the main route before the M20 was done properly.

[frediculous_biggs]

Contra commentators AndyJ and Simon Berry on the Kent Online article, the A299 is the busier road - 45k vs 35k AADT, according to the nearest DFT count points.

The junction is the right way round, but simply not high enough capacity for the turning movements. This is a common problem for junctions between UK expressways.

As you say, there isn't a huge amount in it. It does mean though, that 20k AADT goes around the roundabout, which simply cannot cope.

A dedicated slip from the A2 NB to the M2 would solve a number of the issues travelling that direction, although would require the closing of Brenley Lane. Bryn's design is, of course, much better!

[Brenley Corner]

As you say, there isn't a huge amount in it. It does mean though, that 20k AADT goes around the roundabout, which simply cannot cope.

There is also a significant flow from the A2 Canterbury to the A2 Faversham both ways. The design of the approach from Canterbury means that all traffic for A2 Faversham has to get into Lane 2 on the approach to the roundabout and vehicles in Lane 2 wanting the M2 have to go left. In the rush hours this can cause weaving and delays and queues back for a mile or two are not uncommon especially in the evening rush.

Tony

[Bryn666]

In the 1960s the A20 was the main route to the ports - the Maidstone Bypass came first for a reason. It also had experimental signs to direct traffic between London and Dover.

Canterbury was always too much of a bottleneck prior to the A2 bypass in 1980 to be a serious route to the ports.

Remember in the 60s Margate and the rest of Planet Thanet were a huge holiday destination so the A2/M2/A299 corridor would have taken precedence over international traffic.

[frediculous_biggs]

As you say, there isn't a huge amount in it. It does mean though, that 20k AADT goes around the roundabout, which simply cannot cope.

There is also a significant flow from the A2 Canterbury to the A2 Faversham both ways. The design of the approach from Canterbury means that all traffic for A2 Faversham has to get into Lane 2 on the approach to the roundabout and vehicles in Lane 2 wanting the M2 have to go left. In the rush hours this can cause weaving and delays and queues back for a mile or two are not uncommon especially in the evening rush.

Tony

For sure, I sit in that queue most days!
By having a dedicated slip onto the M2 from the A2 NB, it leaves two lanes free for traffic heading to Faversham, which should then hopefully flow easier at the next set of lights too.

[jackal]

Remember in the 60s Margate and the rest of Planet Thanet were a huge holiday destination so the A2/M2/A299 corridor would have taken precedence over international traffic.

... which prior to joining the common market was only a small fraction of what it is now.

[roadtester]

Remember in the 60s Margate and the rest of Planet Thanet were a huge holiday destination so the A2/M2/A299 corridor would have taken precedence over international traffic.

... which prior to joining the common market was only a small fraction of what it is now.

All I know is that through the sixties and seventies as a kid when my family made this journey quite a bit it was always A2/M2 not A20. I think certainly from Dover, A20 would have been a pretty non-obvious route, especially once the flyover/Jubilee Way starting scooping up traffic out of the docks from 1977(?) onwards.

[Bryn666]

I rather suspect your parents were avoiding the regular jams on the A20.

[roadtester]

I rather suspect your parents were avoiding the regular jams on the A20.

TBH, I can't remember A20 ever being mentioned as an option. We were mainly going onward to Wales or Gloucestershire via London. Today, the obvious route would be the M20 clockwise followed by M25 then M4 or M40. But in those days via London the M2/A2 was the obvious route, with a direct straight-through via the Embankment usually being a better bet than either the North or South Circulars (this was often at night).

PS CBRD is good enough for me!

"The final radial route in the series. At the time this was planned in the 1960s, the A2 was still the de-facto route between London and Dover. It is only in relatively recent years that the completion of the M20, and lack of corresponding upgrades to the A2 in east Kent, made the A20/M20 corridor the main road to both Dover and Folkestone."

http://www.cbrd.co.uk/articles/ringways ... n/m2.shtml

[SteveA30]

I seem to recall that the missing bit of M20 from 8-9 had been abandoned, until the Chunnel was approved. Then it was reinstated, opening in May 91. The A20 was very busy but, flowing most of the time.

The A2 often featured on the local news in the mid 70's, even as a viewer in Fleet. They must have had a larger coverage area then. The reports always had footage of Bridge and Dunkirk and residents complaining about 'juggernauts', a word we don't hear so often these days. Coach trips via Dover always went that way. I was amazed at how narrow the A2 was through there. The drivers had to slow to a crawl, to pass each other, without mirror bashing.

[Brenley Corner]

The reports always had footage of Bridge and Dunkirk and residents complaining about 'juggernauts', a word we don't hear so often these days. Coach trips via Dover always went that way. I was amazed at how narrow the A2 was through there. The drivers had to slow to a crawl, to pass each other, without mirror bashing.

Brenley Corner was for a long time the end of dual carraigeway from London to Dover (1965 to 1977). Bridge received its bypass in 1976 and Boughton/Dunkirk in 1976/77 - the fact that it was built during the long hot dry summer of 1976 has caused problems with its high embankments to this day.
Canterbury was not bypassed until 1980/81 relying on its semi complete ring road from the 1960s onwards.

Tony

[Brenley Corner]

Canterbury was always too much of a bottleneck prior to the A2 bypass in 1980 to be a serious route to the ports.

The government had provided funds to build the inner bypass/ring road("Rheims Way") in the early and mid 1960s but it didn't completely solve the problem.

So this raises the question why was the big money spent connecting the A2 to the Eastern Docks via the construction of the technically magnficent Jubilee Way in the 1970s (opened before contruction began on Canterbury bypass), and why was the A20 not improved from Folkestone right to the Eastern Docks until the 1990s?

Tony

[Johnathan404]

From what I have read about the M2, coaches were expected to form a much more significant proportion of the traffic than on any other motorway.

That doesn't mean Dover traffic wouldn't have been important too.

[Bryn666]

Tony - if you look at the standard of Jubilee Way it falls well below what you'd have hoped for a major route - I rather suspect it was just to remove the bottlenecks in Dover and the hill at Lydden.

The Channel Tunnel was probably the deciding factor in all this, uncertainty about it until it was finally green lit in 1988 (some twelve years or so after it was first mooted seriously - ignoring the Victorian effort) probably caused inertia on road projects.

It certainly seems that the A20 link from Folkestone to Dover was an afterthought.

[Gareth Thomas]

Tony - if you look at the standard of Jubilee Way it falls well below what you'd have hoped for a major route - I rather suspect it was just to remove the bottlenecks in Dover and the hill at Lydden.

The Channel Tunnel was probably the deciding factor in all this, uncertainty about it until it was finally green lit in 1988 (some twelve years or so after it was first mooted seriously - ignoring the Victorian effort) probably caused inertia on road projects.

It certainly seems that the A20 link from Folkestone to Dover was an afterthought.

And probably why it is A20 rather than an extension of the M20.

Regarding Jubilee Way. whilst I support the rest of the A2 being dualled into Dover, Jubilee Way works best as one lane towards the Docks, as it means the traffic stays in one line and there is no frantic breaking and lane changing as you approach the Eastern Docks roundabout.

[A9NWIL]

As you say, there isn't a huge amount in it. It does mean though, that 20k AADT goes around the roundabout, which simply cannot cope.

There is also a significant flow from the A2 Canterbury to the A2 Faversham both ways. The design of the approach from Canterbury means that all traffic for A2 Faversham has to get into Lane 2 on the approach to the roundabout and vehicles in Lane 2 wanting the M2 have to go left. In the rush hours this can cause weaving and delays and queues back for a mile or two are not uncommon especially in the evening rush.

Tony

That sounds like on top of Bryn's design the A2 needs to be freeflow through the junction and the A299 needs at the very least left hand filter lanes with the A2, as in A2 south to A299 east and A299 west to A2 south.
That would mean the only traffic left on the roundabout would be A2 north to A299 east, A299 west to A2 north, M2 east to A2 north and A2 south to M2 west. Eg mostly the missing right hand turn movements and the quietest left turn movement.

[Brenley Corner]

Latest article in our local paper: HERE

Apparently its an accident blackspot as well as everything else!

Tony

[AnOrdinarySABREUser]

I had a look through the thread and was inspired by the previous layout Bryn showed earlier on the post, so I decided to come up with a layout which would just extend the M2 up to Dunkirk where it would end at (what would hopefully be) a temporary terminus at the existing A2 junction.



With this proposal, I'd imagine that the M2 would have to be widened up to a D3M standard (possibly with a DHS scheme applied to it as well) between the Perry Court Interchange and Brenley Corner, and considering the absolute disaster that the current layout of the Perry Court Interchange is, I'd like to imagine that it'd be redesigned and set back quite a distance as well because of the fork being very close (1/2 miles) to the existing junction, which would no doubt cause huge weaving issues!

Additionally, the A299 would get a lane and a half off of the M2, diverging into 2 lanes each way, sort of like the M25 heading south at Cheveney, and the A299 merging onto the M2 would be a tiger tail merge design.

One of the main issues I have with the terminus at Dunkirk under my proposals is the possibility of the A2 through Boughton being overloaded with traffic - this just cannot happen, especially considering how steep the A2 is coming out of Boughton. Hopefully, there'd be some connection at Harbledown linking the A2 to the A290, so traffic can head up to Whitstable that way. Perhaps the M2 could be extended to Dover if this were to happen.

I think the design I've come up with here is fairly reasonable. It'd be no more expensive than other projects undertaken by National Highways in recent years, and I think it'd be a good way to upgrade the A2 corridor to motorway standards under the M2, of course. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this design, though!

Nonetheless, I don't think this scheme will be coming around for quite a long time. The existing layout at Brenley Corner handles traffic quite well, but during peak traffic hours the A2 Londonbound comes to a grinding halt, and sometimes can back up all the way to Dunkirk. I think this is more of a way to help bring the A2 up to a motorway standard and provide a fully grade-separated route between London and Dover.

[jackal]

^ I agree with the general idea but I prefer Bryn's design on the previous page for a couple of reasons.

First, your design effectively "unbypasses" Boughton for a significant amount of traffic. You mention a link to the A290 at Harbledown but traffic continuing along the A2 (London Road) would still have to go through Boughton in your design, not to mention the extra cost of the Harbledown link compared to Bryn's bridge.

Second, Bryn has the A299 retaining the mainline, which is appropriate to traffic volumes (45k A299 vs 35k A2).

The NH budget for the scheme is £139m per the pipeline, which should be enough for a design like this. The somewhat similar A47/A11 Thickthorn Junction improvement has an estimated cost of £91.2m.

[KeithW]

All I know is that through the sixties and seventies as a kid when my family made this journey quite a bit it was always A2/M2 not A20. I think certainly from Dover, A20 would have been a pretty non-obvious route, especially once the flyover/Jubilee Way starting scooping up traffic out of the docks from 1977(?) onwards.

In the late 1970's and early 1980's I spent a lot of time heading to Kent. There were 3 major bottlenecks but it came down to the fact that neither the A2/M2 or A20/M20 were very satisfactory.

Coming down from the North it scarcely mattered whether you took the M1 or A1 because either way you ended up at 5 ways and in day time you usually ended up on the North Circular fighting your way round to either the Blackwall Tunnel or Dartford Tunnel - until 1980 there was only the one tunnel at Dartford and the queues tailed back for miles. Where possible I tried to hit London late at night as I could get through the centre , through the Blackwall Tunnel and down the A2.

Once over the River neither the A2 nor A20 route was very good but on balance headed for the Channel Ports my usual route was the M2/A2. Canterbury was a pain but so was Ashford and then getting from Folkestone to Dover was a mess as the route at the time took you up Dover Hill and through Capel Le Ferne dumping you in the centre of Dover. If I was headed for West Kent/East Sussex then the route was M20/A20 to Ashford and then what was at the time the B2070, now the A2070 to Brenzett and the A259.