France - confusing or what?

[Derek]

Just back from a relaxing two weeks in France and northern Spain (including 1,200 miles in three days!). It's the second time I've done a France trip and this years was a bit more adventurous.

But I've got some complaints about the way the French do things:

1: Road signs - they're rubbish. Route signs often only list places, even on the autoroutes. This is OK if you know the georaphy of France, but otherwise its useless. They don't seem to have the concept of "m6 north" or anythnig like that. You don't even get route confirmation signs after junctions.

2: Toll roads. Most of the Auto routes are toll roads. This is fine for the French who don't have road tax, but for us who do.... All the signposts direct traffic to the auto routes and hence to the tolls. Because of the need to go through the toll booths both directions enter at the same place and you're then often faced with no more than a list of place names to chose from. Autoroute junctions can be a real nightmare because of this and a mistake can mean not only going out of the way, but also having to pay for it as well.

3: Paris peripherique, hells teeth. It's as if Ringway 1 was built but the M25 wasn't, nor were many of the radial routes. Getting on the thing is easy enough and sitting in the four lanes of nose to tail traffic is bearable, but getting off is a nightmare. Again, there are no long distance signs, just local places and few road numbers.

4: The pyrenees are fun though (although Spain is better). Lots of nice hairpin bends ensure the gearstick gets a lot of use.

5: They drive on the wrong side of the road...

Anyway it's nice to be back

Derek

[Bryn666]

I may sound slightly flippant with these responses as I adore France as a country...

1. Get a map? Most signs point to major destinations with local destinations underneath. There are also route confirmation signs after every junction; like this:



2. Tolls are there because the roads are effectively PFI. The French do have road tax, it's part of their payments to the local commune and is the reason why even the crappiest D road is still superior to our cart track trunk roads like the A64 and A17.

3. If you want to go from South to North avoiding Paris, just use the 104 loop. It's a bit out of the way but saves you stress. The Peripherique is designed to be an orbital for the city centre but functions as a cross-national route due to the fact that most of Paris is rather historic and people don't want it crisscrossed with more motorways.

4. Until you find the sheer drops lack armco barriers, which on my last visit to there was the case.

5. We won't go there.

[Derek]

I may sound slightly flippant with these responses as I adore France as a country...

Actually I like it too, that's why I went back

1. Get a map? Most signs point to major destinations with local destinations underneath.

Ever tried reading a map whilst driving at 100kph? Oh for a tomtom....

I did the Paris peripherique on purpose to have a look at it. Thing is a lot of peole do use it as a through route because it's the only obvious one. Are there any plans for a Paris M25?

Derek

[Bryn666]

Ah, you didn't say you were driving solo!

As for Paris outer ring road, don't hold your breath... best you'll get is improvements to what's already there on the 104 route.

[Chris Bertram]

Yes, a lot of long-distance Autoroutes are toll roads, but this does seem to keep local traffic on the local roads - plus, on the toll sections the exits are well-spaced to discourage junction-hoppers. This means that the sections à péage are generally stress-free as you're not playing dodgems. I never had any problem with paying up, and in any case the parallel N- or D- road will be very much slower. Urban motorways are very like UK urban motorways, and are free.

What did puzzle me on my visits to Brittany is why the high-quality expressway that does a loop of the peninsula is not a toll motorway. It has all the characteristics, and I'm pretty sure is built to the same standard, except that the exits are not designed around toll booths.

[moogal]

Working out where you want to get off the peripherique isn't too bad - all the junctions are named Porte d'(something) so on the rare occasions I want to go through Paris I look for the name of the junction I want and the one before it so as to be in the right lane.

[IJP1]

I too wouldn't want to sound flippant, and indeed I don't like French signage (neither the aesthetics nor the system)... but I don't think you can say for the lone reason that they lack road numbers that they're "rubbish".

Most continental European countries have signage systems based around major destinations, not directions or numbers. It's simply a matter of what you base your system around. Once you get used to it, it works.

The UK was originally very number-based, now it's quite direction-based. The French wouldn't be used to that and may find it initially confusing - but that doesn't mean our signage is "rubbish"!

[t1(M)]

Ah, you didn't say you were driving solo!

As for Paris outer ring road, don't hold your breath... best you'll get is improvements to what's already there on the 104 route.

not to mention the nearly-complete A86

[luchar]

Ah, you didn't say you were driving solo!

As for Paris outer ring road, don't hold your breath... best you'll get is improvements to what's already there on the 104 route.

not to mention the nearly-complete A86

The plans for the Francilienne Ouest (A104) for 2015 (the public debate's finished http://www.debatpublic-francilienne.org/), the A26 bypassing Paris by the east for transit traffic....

[PeterA5145]

My main complaint is those stupid "Continental" measurements they use. Couldn't get the hang of those at all

[Bryn666]

Just remembered something about France; destinations that are practically the other side of the country frequently get signposted - i.e. Lyon is signposted near Lens and Arras, Bordeaux is signed from Rouen, etc.

We don't seem to bother with that in the UK - if we did, we'd see signs for Glasgow at Catthorpe, signs for Swansea at Strensham, and signs for London in Edinburgh...

[Derek]

Just remembered something about France; destinations that are practically the other side of the country frequently get signposted - i.e. Lyon is signposted near Lens and Arras, Bordeaux is signed from Rouen, etc.

We don't seem to bother with that in the UK - if we did, we'd see signs for Glasgow at Catthorpe, signs for Swansea at Strensham, and signs for London in Edinburgh...

Well, you do get signs for "London" from just about anywhere on the main motorways, but maybe you're onto something. I reckon there is something strange about the way places are listed on the signs, not really sure what it is though.

But you shouldn't really have to think about the information signs give you - at least at high speed motorway junctions, it should be conceptually clear.

My main complaint is those stupid "Continental" measurements they use. Couldn't get the hang of those at all Confused

It does make sense when you drive on the wrong side of the road, trust me.

Derek

[Chris Bertram]

My main complaint is those stupid "Continental" measurements they use. Couldn't get the hang of those at all

Well Peter, if you look at your UK speedo, you'll see big numbers for MPH, and smaller numbers for km/h. This is quite useful for distance conversion as well, as not only is 100 km/h equivalent to 62 MPH, but 100 km = 62 miles too! You might need to divide down and multiply back up for some of the longer distances, but it works every time for me

[IJP1]

Bryn

You're most certainly on to something.

The absolute nonsense is the failure to give Holyhead at the start of the A55 - if I'm not mistaken, it's a good 20 miles before Holyhead is mentioned on the distance signs.

I would entirely agree on motorways and primary roads that the whole point is long distance. The M1 north at London should give Birmingham and Leeds, the M6 west at Birmingham should give Manchester and Glasgow, the M4 west from London should at least give Bristol, perhaps also Cardiff; and so on. That's what such roads are there for!

Rgds,
I.

[Arcuarius]

Indeed, Ipswich doesn't get signed on the northbound A12 until you're practically on top of it.

[Lewis]

Birmingham is signed from the M25, and the route confirmation signs on the M40 have Birmingham 106 or somthing like that.

One thing i notices in france is that they have a lot of cloverleafs and trumpets, didnt see and 4LS's or directional T's.

[Bryn666]

Directional Ts aplenty in France, but no 4-level stacks. Only an aborted one exists at Palaiseau on the A10.

[M4Simon]

Just back from a relaxing two weeks in France and northern Spain (including 1,200 miles in three days!). It's the second time I've done a France trip and this years was a bit more adventurous.

Like you, just back from France. Don't want to say where, yet, as I've just set a quiz...

But I've got some complaints about the way the French do things:

1: Road signs - they're rubbish. Route signs often only list places, even on the autoroutes. This is OK if you know the georaphy of France, but otherwise its useless. They don't seem to have the concept of "m6 north" or anythnig like that. You don't even get route confirmation signs after junctions.

As others noted, the French sign places from more distant locations, and in that sense their signage is good. However, I had to navigate through a strange town last night. I knew roughly where I was going, but found that the fonts meant you needed to get a lot closer to the signs to read them than you would in the UK - therefore giving you less time to take in the info and to react. I also found that in towns, places would be signed at one junction, then you would lose the signage soon after - there was no continuity of signage.

2: Toll roads. Most of the Auto routes are toll roads. This is fine for the French who don't have road tax, but for us who do.... All the signposts direct traffic to the auto routes and hence to the tolls. Because of the need to go through the toll booths both directions enter at the same place and you're then often faced with no more than a list of place names to chose from. Autoroute junctions can be a real nightmare because of this and a mistake can mean not only going out of the way, but also having to pay for it as well.

I liked the toll roads. I could drive legally at 80mph on a road with very little traffic - stress free and very easy. The biggest hold ups were at the toll booths themselves, particularly if you paid cash as we did. If you have a t-tag or a credit card, it was much quicker.

3: Paris peripherique, hells teeth. It's as if Ringway 1 was built but the M25 wasn't, nor were many of the radial routes. Getting on the thing is easy enough and sitting in the four lanes of nose to tail traffic is bearable, but getting off is a nightmare. Again, there are no long distance signs, just local places and few road numbers.

We didn't go there so I can't comment.

4: The pyrenees are fun though (although Spain is better). Lots of nice hairpin bends ensure the gearstick gets a lot of use.

I enjoyed mountain driving too...

5: They drive on the wrong side of the road...

There was only one place where this phased me slightly, but I'll say more once my quiz has been answered.

Anyway it's nice to be back

Derek

Likewise.

BTW, if you drive at 130kph you can get an approximate journey time in minutes by dividing the distance by 2.

Cheers,

Simon

[luchar]

Birmingham is signed from the M25, and the route confirmation signs on the M40 have Birmingham 106 or somthing like that.

One thing i notices in france is that they have a lot of cloverleafs and trumpets, didnt see and 4LS's or directional T's.

There are some, but on the "old" 70s motorways... New motorway junctions (80s-90s) are built on the cheap, with trumpet interchanges or "upgraded" cloverleaves...

Problems appear on interchanges between expressways and autoroutes.... Often there are some roundabouts.... Just check the N145-A20 junction near La Souterraine or the D1(A64) and A63 near Bayonne...

To save money, the State has also come up with a cheap technique: building 2 lane roads with roundabouts, give it the expressway restrictions, and say to justify it that there will be a "second phase during which the road will be dualled and grade separated"... Some hwys built like this have been waiting this "second phase" for about 15 years...

[Bryn666]

Sounds like the N347 Rocade de Saumur, Luchar! Obvious space for the missing two lanes, but no sign of them ever being built...