All,
Following on an earlier post, I've created a map on google maps for a possible new road scheme in this area:
Google maps link
I am sure there may well be a hill in the way (!), but if this were viable it would combine a number of schemes in one.
Any thoughts??
The alternative for the route out of Lifford would be to head direct for St Johnstone. Better for Derry but less so for Letterkenny.
IRL: Strabane, Lifford, Derry
Moderator: Site Management Team
Nice map, DantheMan, I mooted something like this somewhere in the A5 thread, this gives a good picture of the possibilities.
On the downside the topography west of Derry is not easy and NIRS would be responsible for this. However better links there would be useful in any case.
This route has many advantages, it provides a new N14, and an effective route to Letterkenny from the Southern side of Derry. This would reduce traffic on the N13, which would not need to be upgraded. This route would also somewhat reduce pressure on the A5 north of Strabane, so only small upgrade works would be needed there.
Politically the route would clearly benefit Donegal, but would still clearly serve the most populous part of Derry city. This would make it easier for the ROI government to pay for it in economically less booming times, as Donegal has clearly lost out somewhat. The ROI government could pay for the Donegal section, leaving Aughnacloy - Strabane as a joint project, the minimum distance in NI and so making it more likely that the NIRS could find their share, especially as Omagh Ballygawley is important for purely NI bound traffic. If the ROI build a motorway or near motorway road from Strabane and to Aughnacloy then the pressure is on politically to close the gap.
As for new routes not deviating from old ones, the NW route is not typical, but the M18 debate in another thread indicates a significant variation. This northern part of this route might replace the N15 as part of the same Atlantic corridor.
On the downside the topography west of Derry is not easy and NIRS would be responsible for this. However better links there would be useful in any case.
This route has many advantages, it provides a new N14, and an effective route to Letterkenny from the Southern side of Derry. This would reduce traffic on the N13, which would not need to be upgraded. This route would also somewhat reduce pressure on the A5 north of Strabane, so only small upgrade works would be needed there.
Politically the route would clearly benefit Donegal, but would still clearly serve the most populous part of Derry city. This would make it easier for the ROI government to pay for it in economically less booming times, as Donegal has clearly lost out somewhat. The ROI government could pay for the Donegal section, leaving Aughnacloy - Strabane as a joint project, the minimum distance in NI and so making it more likely that the NIRS could find their share, especially as Omagh Ballygawley is important for purely NI bound traffic. If the ROI build a motorway or near motorway road from Strabane and to Aughnacloy then the pressure is on politically to close the gap.
As for new routes not deviating from old ones, the NW route is not typical, but the M18 debate in another thread indicates a significant variation. This northern part of this route might replace the N15 as part of the same Atlantic corridor.
If you come back to this area in 50 years time you may well find Letterkenny / Buncrana and L'Derry will be one big urban area, and dan's proposed road would feed nicely into the centre. Given that the Donegal CoCo is planning to upgrade the N14, and given that quite a lot of traffic will still travel on the A5 (not only Waterside, but also City of Derry Airport, Limavady, Ballkelly etc) I still think two routes would be better as one route could well lead to bottlenecks.
I do agree, though, that a route west of the Foyle would be a good idea, not least because I feel that the upgraded A5 should feed onto the Cityside which has a much large population and would take a lot of pressure off the Craigavon Bridge and ease congestion in the Gobnascale area.
Also, Google Maps has a "terrain" button so you can see exactly where all the hills are!
I do agree, though, that a route west of the Foyle would be a good idea, not least because I feel that the upgraded A5 should feed onto the Cityside which has a much large population and would take a lot of pressure off the Craigavon Bridge and ease congestion in the Gobnascale area.
Also, Google Maps has a "terrain" button so you can see exactly where all the hills are!
Northern Ireland Roads Site www.wesleyjohnston.com/roads
While you're driving around
Folks, I don't want to hijack the thread. However, it strikes me that a lot of you are driving around the countryside on new and existing roads. If any of you have GPS receivers capable of recording tracks and are happy to share those tracks with me, I'm trying to fill in the gaps in the Openstreetmap coverage of Ireland, and tracks will help me immensely.
Please PM me if you think you can help.
Thanks!
Please PM me if you think you can help.
Thanks!
And you had the Lough Swilly line from Graving Dock and Pennyburn....bothar wrote:The west bank of the Foyle route was used by the broad gauge main GNR line, so the idea is not totally new.Strabane...Lifford...Derry... all wonderful reminders of the long-lost County Donegal Railways Joint Committee system
"I think all the money the south are giving to the A5 upgrade would be more acceptable if some of the road was in the south."
That's my thinking exactly, it benefits Letterkenny and inishowen better than a road to derry's relatively overdeveloped east bank. It brings letterkenny much closer to derry strabane and omagh. It knocks up to 15 miles of any route in the north, and develops the west bank of the foyle and takes traffic off the craigavon and foyle bridges. With this as the main route to letterkenny from derry/dublin, the existing N13/N14 junction can be GSJ'd.
As far as deviating routes go, is it any worse than the M7/M8 scheme? Bar the toll...
I wonder what some of the local unionists WOTB would think of being directed from Omagh to London's Derry through enemy lines???
That's my thinking exactly, it benefits Letterkenny and inishowen better than a road to derry's relatively overdeveloped east bank. It brings letterkenny much closer to derry strabane and omagh. It knocks up to 15 miles of any route in the north, and develops the west bank of the foyle and takes traffic off the craigavon and foyle bridges. With this as the main route to letterkenny from derry/dublin, the existing N13/N14 junction can be GSJ'd.
As far as deviating routes go, is it any worse than the M7/M8 scheme? Bar the toll...
I wonder what some of the local unionists WOTB would think of being directed from Omagh to London's Derry through enemy lines???
The NRA have a pretty good setup for organising roads at this stage, they could take care of Strabane - Derry allowing Nirs resources be used for Omagh Strabane, speeding things up.
St Johnstone should be too frightening, no worse than StrabaneI wonder what some of the local unionists WOTB would think of being directed from Omagh to London's Derry through enemy lines???
paulwilky wrote:Dantheman,
You should submit your plans to the NRA and see if they come back to you. Seems like a win win all round, and it would also tie in with the National Spatial Strategy for the linked gateway of Derry - Letterkenny.
I would hope to god whoever is getting paid taxpayers money to do the preliminary study would think of the scheme themselves.
Mind you, if they do build the road as per the map, I want 25% of any future tolls...
paulwilky wrote:Dantheman,
You should submit your plans to the NRA and see if they come back to you. Seems like a win win all round, and it would also tie in with the National Spatial Strategy for the linked gateway of Derry - Letterkenny.
Here, hold on for a second - we dont have money to burn. Any money spent on the other side of the fence I would want to see scrutinised very carefully. Im all for improving strategic road links that have a benefit to us. Im not for the impression been given off here that we are going to write blank cheques left, right and center to build roads. Especially somewhere that loudly proclaims to be part of the UK! Sounds a bit daft to me. This should also concern others because not all of this is charity. I think its in Unionist interest to see the British get the cheque books out at this stage
Sry but im of the opinion as a taxpayer that money and responsiblity go hand in hand. So far we dont have enough responsibility for the North to justify extra expenditure.
Yes, it's definitely in NI's interests to get money from RoI! What politician is going to turn down £400m? Paisley and McGuinness lobbied Westminster heavily for money for infrastructure, but were refused. London has a policy that we need to learn to pay our own way, which I do think has merit. Our economy here is too dependant on the public sector.
BUT RoI's money is provided by hard working RoI taxpayers so there's no justification for spending money in NI that is not of direct benefit to RoI citizens.
I think spending RoI money on the A5 upgrade is justified for three reasons
1. It's the gateway from Donegal to Leinster - of direct benefit to RoI.
2. It improves the linkages between the economies of L'Derry, Letterkenney and the rest of the island - of direct benefit to RoI.
3. It would not happen without RoI money as there's no way NI could afford it and, even if we could, it would not be prioritised over routes like the A1, A4, A6, A8 and A26. Work would be at least 20 years away.
At the end of the day it's Dublin's money, so they can give or withhold it for any reason that takes their fancy. I accept that and I think NI as a whole does too.
BUT RoI's money is provided by hard working RoI taxpayers so there's no justification for spending money in NI that is not of direct benefit to RoI citizens.
I think spending RoI money on the A5 upgrade is justified for three reasons
1. It's the gateway from Donegal to Leinster - of direct benefit to RoI.
2. It improves the linkages between the economies of L'Derry, Letterkenney and the rest of the island - of direct benefit to RoI.
3. It would not happen without RoI money as there's no way NI could afford it and, even if we could, it would not be prioritised over routes like the A1, A4, A6, A8 and A26. Work would be at least 20 years away.
At the end of the day it's Dublin's money, so they can give or withhold it for any reason that takes their fancy. I accept that and I think NI as a whole does too.
Northern Ireland Roads Site www.wesleyjohnston.com/roads
From a southern perspective, Derry really needs to be boosted as it's the best hope for the long-term economic anchor for Donegal.
To be honest, whatever about political ambitions, north/south economic barriers really need to come down. The economic partition (ignoring political issues) is something the border counties have never really recovered from (Donegal, Derry, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Leitrim, Monaghan, Cavan, etc.). Louth and South Armagh weren't doing so well either until they became closer to Dublin and Belfast.
London (or Belfast) and Dublin cannot afford to just leave the border counties as a drain on their coffers. The only way they can change that is with well-planned investment.
Again, ignoring political considerations across the water, it is dreadful for RoI and Northern Ireland that the UK did not join the euro. Imagine if we had been using the same currency for the past 6/9 years. It would have done wonders for helping North-South commerce.
To be honest, whatever about political ambitions, north/south economic barriers really need to come down. The economic partition (ignoring political issues) is something the border counties have never really recovered from (Donegal, Derry, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Leitrim, Monaghan, Cavan, etc.). Louth and South Armagh weren't doing so well either until they became closer to Dublin and Belfast.
London (or Belfast) and Dublin cannot afford to just leave the border counties as a drain on their coffers. The only way they can change that is with well-planned investment.
Again, ignoring political considerations across the water, it is dreadful for RoI and Northern Ireland that the UK did not join the euro. Imagine if we had been using the same currency for the past 6/9 years. It would have done wonders for helping North-South commerce.
Not only are governments losing out because of reduced economic activity in border areas but they are directly wasting money by inadequate planning for public service provision of things like hospitals where they are providing an inferior service to the public at higher cost by refusing to cooperate.
Perhaps not a good example! The NI Health Service and the RoI health services already co-operate significantly, especially in border areas. There are set agreements between Belfast and Dublin, and indeed GB, that patients can go anywhere else if space allows. For example, if a child has to go to Intensive Care in Dublin but there's no room, they can be sent to Belfast, Glasgow or anywhere else. The same is true in the other direction. There's also agreements that patients in places like Donegal and Leitrim can be treated in NI hospitals and the Irish government reimburses NI for any expense incurred.bothar wrote:things like hospitals where they are providing an inferior service to the public at higher cost by refusing to cooperate.
Northern Ireland Roads Site www.wesleyjohnston.com/roads
The lack of Euro here is really boosting NI's economy at the moment (although obviously it's temporary). The exchange rate is so good for RoI, that companies are coming north in droves to do business up here. I know folks in a printing company in Belfast which tells me that they've done dozens of jobs - really massive print jobs - from RoI which previously would have gone to southern companies.Zoney wrote:Again, ignoring political considerations across the water, it is dreadful for RoI and Northern Ireland that the UK did not join the euro. Imagine if we had been using the same currency for the past 6/9 years. It would have done wonders for helping North-South commerce.
Northern Ireland Roads Site www.wesleyjohnston.com/roads