Airbrushing towns/cities from maps??

[worcsfan]

I encountered something today I've never encountered before..

I went to Brecon via the A438/A470 from Leominster. The junction of by-pass and 'old road' used to be signed as 'Brecon Bypass' v. 'Brecon'.

It has been resignposted now...with 'Cardiff & Brecon' straight on to the A40 roundabout and with the B4602 signed to 'Cradoc'.

Cradoc is down there- after Brecon! After the Cathedral, round the ring road and past the castle- right through Brecon city centre itself. You have to drive through Brecon to get to Cradoc from that junction.

So Brecon has been airbrushed like a Stalinist picture editor from this roadsign! Has this happened anywhere else in the country?

[B1018 A120 M11]

As far as I know, this happens all the time with road signs when the powers that be don't want you to take the most direct route to a town, because the route is old/narrow/unsuitable for heavy goods traffic, and so on.

I saw another example yesterday: I was heading east on the A436 when I reached the junction of the B4068 and the A436 here. At this point, it's a mile shorter to get to Stow on the Wold if you go up the B4068 rather than staying on the A436, which goes to exactly the same place, but presumably the local council doesn't want lorries thundering through the likes of Naunton and Lower Swell (and trucks might have problems with the last section, the steep hill up from Lower Swell to Stow): so the sign at that junction mentions all the places the road goes to except the most significant one, and the place where the road number finishes: Stow itself. As you say: airbrushed!

Oh yes. And at this junction on the A505 heading north-east, Royston is shown as being up the roundabout exit to the left (ie. following the course of the A505 Royston bypass), whereas by far the quickest way to the centre of town is to take the exit to the right (which is actually the old, pre-bypass A505).

If you look at the signs at that exit, however (visible here), only Therfield and Kelshall are mentioned, with nothing at all about Royston town centre... and the town centre is *much* closer than either of the two tiny villages signposted! Presumably the idea here is to send heavy traffic around the bypass rather than right through the town, although it's a big detour.

MattB

[WHBM]

Standard stuff. For example, M4 at Junction 5, just west of the M25, is even officially known as "Slough East". Yet Slough was removed from the motorway signage years ago and replaced by Langley, a trivial suburban area, even though it is the obvious and best route into the town centre. When you get down to the roundabout Slough reappears.

[multiraider2]

Croydon used to appear on the exit signs at Junction 4 of the M25 clockwise. It was removed but still appears when you get to the A21 itself. It (via A21 and A232) is an obvious distance and time saving route v going all the way to Junction 7 and is on primary roads throughout.

[bob@romiley1]

Happens all the time.

The signpost does not now show the shortest way to go but the route you are requested to follow. This can involve the airbrushing of major towns.

[PeterA5145]

This is a long-running bugbear of mine. In my view, direction signs should be descriptive, not prescriptive, and say where a road actually goes to, not the destination the authorities think people should use it for. If you want to deter certain classes of traffic, you can always put "Great Snoring – light vehicles only" or similar, or even, in extremis, impose a weight limit or access restriction. And, of course, nowadays SatNav sees through official misdirection anyway.

Over the years, I've managed to drive to most parts of the UK without the benefit of a SatNav, and can honestly say that I've virtually never taken a wrong turning except where signage is non-existent or, even worse, contradicts what the map is telling me. On that front, of course the policy of giving primacy to destinations rather than road numbers doesn't help either.

[Mark Hewitt]

What about the situation where there's often a motorway junction with an A-road which does - eventually lead to a major city, but in fact you'd be much better off taking the grade seperated D2 route the next junction down?

[GrahamP]

In my view, direction signs should be descriptive, not prescriptive, and say where a road actually goes to

So, "Inverness A82" from Glasgow, "London A1" from Edinburgh, "Dartford Tunnel M25" from either side of the Dartford Tunnel, but pointing away from it...?

[nowster]

A most obvious one of these is the patching over of the A550 at the A494 junction at Queensferry. The B5129 is now what is signed, even though the A550 still meets the roundabout.

http://maps.google.co.uk/cbk?output=til ... maps_print

[flyingscot]

Junction 24 of the M8 used to contain a sign for A761 Paisley. This was a bad error, as whilst the A761 does go to Paisley and it is the next 'big destination' on the road it was very much urban grind and 30mph roads. Think of say in London jumping off the A40 and heading down the Uxbridge Road instead. Paisley is actually signed and better accessed from J27, J28 and J29 some 4-5 miles down the M8. Technically J24 is on an unclassified road, the A761 is up the road as is the A8 in the opposite direction too.

It confused many folk, including relatives of ours. They changed it now to Bellahouston and Govan which are local areas nearby however the gantry on the slip states Paisley still, but too late for you to change. Note the A737 now A761 sign- how old is that circa 1994?

[kieron]

It has been resignposted now...with 'Cardiff & Brecon' straight on to the A40 roundabout and with the B4602 signed to 'Cradoc'

They could have done a proper job like at The Bars in Chester. The road in front of the camera is a primary route. The road to the left is the A51. Not that you can tell from the signs.

I think it's fairly unusual to have a destination listed for more than one direction at a junction. It does happen at the A494-Corwen Road junction south of Ruthin (and I'm sure there's a thread full of other examples), but it's rare.

If they don't do that, and there's a junction from which there are several plausible routes to somewhere, you have to "airbrush" one out.

[Trebeck]

This turnoff signposted Glengormley, yet directs you to a busy urban S4, right at a roundabout, busy urban S2 + buslane, S4, S2, S4.
Whereas everybody knows the fastest way to get to Glengormley is to go straight (HQDC D2) onto the M2 (D5/4/3) and turn off at J4.

As for airbrushing towns from signs - "Newtownabbey" the largest town in Ireland (North or South) is not signposted as such, yet the component areas such as Glengormley, Whiteabbey are.

This would be like Milton Keynes not being signed, but Bletchley, Stony Stratford and Wolverton being signed from all roads and motorways.

[kieron]

As for airbrushing towns from signs - "Newtownabbey" the largest town in Ireland (North or South) is not signposted as such, yet the component areas such as Glengormley, Whiteabbey are.

This would be like Milton Keynes not being signed, but Bletchley, Stony Stratford and Wolverton being signed from all roads and motorways.

Does Newtownabbey have a town centre? It looks quite diffuse on a map, so I'm wondering if a motorist would know what to expect from a sign pointing to it.

I'm wondering if it a better comparison might be with "Deeside", which I have noticed on a few signs on a cycle path near Chester, but never on the roads. And I don't see anything wrong with that.

[Stevie D]

This is a long-running bugbear of mine. In my view, direction signs should be descriptive, not prescriptive, and say where a road actually goes to, not the destination the authorities think people should use it for.

I'm not sure I can agree with that. You should be able to assume that if a destination is signed along a particular road, that road is (usually) the quickest way to get from where you are to that destination.

On the one hand, there will be times when you can't signpost the quickest route, because paradoxically as soon as you signpost it, it fills up with traffic and is no longer the quickest route - particularly when looking at minor roads taking a shortcut compared to main roads - and in that case, you signpost the route that works better as a signposted route. If the problem is purely that one route is unsuitable for large vehicles then you can signpost both routes and distinguish between them.

On the other hand, there will be times when the road goes to a town but is not the quickest way to get there. Who are you best serving by directing people to use that road? I would think that a very small proportion of people will be following a map or written directions, needing that road (eg, for an intermediate destination or side-turning), and would fail to realise it was the right road without that end destination signposted. Far more people will follow the signs to the end destination (therefore on the 'wrong' road) than would benefit. Especially when you're looking at motorways and main roads, signs need to be clear and concise, giving drivers the most relevant information.


Going back to airbrushing ... I went to Alton Towers the other day with some friends, and while I knew exactly where I was going on the way back, my friend driving the other car didn't - first of all he benefited from this, and then lost out. For a start, getting out of the car park, I knew that I needed to be in the right hand lane, so sat in the longer queue. But the signs don't tell you which lane you need to be in til right near the end, so he had merrily sailed down the left hand lane and then pushed in when he saw the sign further along. And a useful sign it was to, it directed traffic for "M1 North". And at subsequent junctions, there was always a mention of M1 (although it was usually done incorrectly), Until we got to Ashbourne, at which point "M1" disappeared from the signs altogether. So he fired up his sat nav and it sent him the wrong way, through Belper.

Moral of this story (1) - know where you are going and don't rely on a sat nav.
Moral of this story (2) - when a place is signposted, it should continue to be signposted until you get to it.

[nirs]

As for airbrushing towns from signs - "Newtownabbey" the largest town in Ireland (North or South) is not signposted as such, yet the component areas such as Glengormley, Whiteabbey are.

This would be like Milton Keynes not being signed, but Bletchley, Stony Stratford and Wolverton being signed from all roads and motorways.

Does Newtownabbey have a town centre? It looks quite diffuse on a map, so I'm wondering if a motorist would know what to expect from a sign pointing to it.

I used to live in Newtownabbey and thought about this a lot. Newtownabbey is not a town, at least not in the normal sense: it's a borough council area. The name was chosen in the 50s when the council was created, after it became obvious that the villages in the area (Whiteabbey, Whitehouse, Glengormley, Carnmoney) would eventually be joined together into one sprawling urban area. Most local people do not think of "Newtownabbey" but rather the constituent villages. I know this because I actually did an informal study where I asked lots of people I know to list where they felt they lived. Most said either the name of the original village (eg "Glengormley") or just "Belfast". Very few people said "Newtownabbey". There is little social or geographical connection between, say, Glengormley and Jordanstown.

Kieron is right that Newtownabbey does not have a "centre" in the normal urban sense because it encircles Carnmoney Hill. In fact, it's said to be the only "town" in the UK where it's legal to shoot grouse in the geographical centre! I do not think that there would be much utility in signing "Newtownabbey" since it's such a broad geographical area - where would you point the sign to, exactly? The Abbeycentre? Glengormley? Rathcoole? And what about the town of Ballyclare which is also part of Newtownabbey, but is miles away in the countryside and clearly a town in its own right? There may be some utility in signing Newtownabbey from further afield, but once you get more than say ten miles away, when the sign would make sense, the distinction between Newtownabbey and north Belfast then starts to blur and it may seem superfluous even that far away.

Newtownabbey is used really only in reference to the council. If the Review of Public Administration ever happens, then the borough council will disappear and the name "Newtownabbey" may well fall out of popular usage, unless of course it is incorporated into the new council name.

[Mark Hewitt]

Moral of this story (2) - when a place is signposted, it should continue to be signposted until you get to it.

That's one of my personal bugbears with signage.
I can't count the number of times I've followed signs to a destination and then you come to a T-junction and it's no longer there! Just a string of local destinations which I don't know where they are!

Either that or you've been following the (e.g.) B1234 then then at the T-junction it mentions destinations but not the road number!

[doebag]

Going slightly off thread but...

Wisbech in Cambridgeshire, and Spalding in Lincolnshire.
Two towns approximately 20 miles apart, both similar in size physically and in population [about 20,000] both once situated on [now bypassed by] major roads, the A.47 and A.16.
BUT...

From Spalding, Wisbech is signposted via two routes, but from Wisbech there is no signage at all for Spalding

[GrahamP]

But then, that could make perfect sense. Example: Callander is a lot bigger than Crianlarich, yet while Crianlarich (a primary destination, due to sitting on a staggered crossroads of major roads) is signposted from Callander, Callander is not signposted from Crianlarich because Stirling (bigger and much more important) is further along the same road.

[Trebeck]

I used to live in Newtownabbey and thought about this a lot. Newtownabbey is not a town, at least not in the normal sense: it's a borough council area. The name was chosen in the 50s when the council was created, after it became obvious that the villages in the area (Whiteabbey, Whitehouse, Glengormley, Carnmoney) would eventually be joined together into one sprawling urban area. Most local people do not think of "Newtownabbey" but rather the constituent villages. I know this because I actually did an informal study where I asked lots of people I know to list where they felt they lived. Most said either the name of the original village (eg "Glengormley") or just "Belfast". Very few people said "Newtownabbey". There is little social or geographical connection between, say, Glengormley and Jordanstown.

Kieron is right that Newtownabbey does not have a "centre" in the normal urban sense because it encircles Carnmoney Hill. In fact, it's said to be the only "town" in the UK where it's legal to shoot grouse in the geographical centre! I do not think that there would be much utility in signing "Newtownabbey" since it's such a broad geographical area - where would you point the sign to, exactly? The Abbeycentre? Glengormley? Rathcoole? And what about the town of Ballyclare which is also part of Newtownabbey, but is miles away in the countryside and clearly a town in its own right? There may be some utility in signing Newtownabbey from further afield, but once you get more than say ten miles away, when the sign would make sense, the distinction between Newtownabbey and north Belfast then starts to blur and it may seem superfluous even that far away.

Newtownabbey is used really only in reference to the council. If the Review of Public Administration ever happens, then the borough council will disappear and the name "Newtownabbey" may well fall out of popular usage, unless of course it is incorporated into the new council name.

I agree, Newtownabbey is mostly a town without any character whatsoever, made up of villages and estates with their own character. Most people do refer to themselves as from Glengormley/Jordanstown/Whiteabbey etc. (Though I grew up in a rough part of the town so to ensure a taxi home from a night out in Belfast or when in conversation I did used to refer to my home destination as "Newtownabbey") The Abbeycentre is the closest to a town centre, though it is more of a retail park than a centre. Even Livingston town centre feels more like a "town centre" despite being a collection of shopping centres itself.

It could have been sign posted from the M2 and from Larne on the A8/A2, and from Belfast city centre.
Little point in signposting once approaching the town boundaries itself, and keep the current area signing (eg. on M2 Foreshore).

Most would think of Ballyclare though as more of a rural annex rather than a continuation of the urban area. Ballycarry is signed as such from Larne while being in Larne borough, the same should apply to Ballyclare.

Practically though, Newtownabbey is rarely a tourist location, business seem to find the business areas eg. Mallusk fairly easily from the main routes, and the locals have got used to the signage over the last 50 years, so there is probably no reason for change at this stage.

[MJN]

There's something of a reluctance to direct people from anywhere in Nottingham to Leicester and vice versa. They do exist, but the only ones I can think of in Nottingham are around the junction of the A60, A606 and B679 in West Bridgford and a couple around the ring road junctions with the A60 and A606, but in Leicester just a distance sign on the A607 near Rushey Mead/Thurmaston and one at the A6/A46 roundabout. I appreciate that there is no single road between the two, but you will always find signs to Newark, Melton and Loughborough (Newark being considerably beyond the Nottingham turn from Leicester on the A46, and requiring a change of road to get to from Nottingham), but rarely signs from one city to the other.