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Osthagen wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 09:17
I haven't read the official DofT documents on RCS signage (if any exists), although several are completely inept at confirming what route a driver is on. But my point is that I, and indeed others, make use of RCS signage not so much for planning, but for strategic purposes, to gauge roughly where we are in relation to the rest of the journey, therefore making it easier to calculate the remaining time to our end destination.
What strategic purposes ?
The reality is that if you are on a reasonable quality dual carriage way route such as the A1 or A2 estimating time left is dependent on traffic levels. When I set out from Middlesbrough heading for Cambridge I know how far it is and unless the Doncaster bypass is playing up how long it should take.
A Route Confirmatory Sign simply tells you what places along the road you can get to and how far away they are, it says nothing about the quality of the road and how long the journey will take.
Take the A1 south of Darrington, depending on how the Doncaster bypass is behaving it could take anything from an hour to 2 hours +. This is why I always have my alternate route via the A60 memorised. There is something deeply satisfying about whizzing along it looking at stationary traffic on the Doncaster Bypass. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.47317 ... 8192?hl=en
In the 2000 plus comments on this thread I am sure this has been mentioned before, but most of us here on a roads forum have a good working knowledge of the UK road system and have a pretty good mental map of the UK.
While there are lots of comments about notes on bits of paper etc, how does our signage in regards to destinations and routes apper to foreign road users?
I'm sure we all have heard stories or drivers putting in 'Wales' on their satnav and going to the village in Yorkshire, or 'Stamford Bridge' and ending up at the Chelsea FC ground instead of a village east of York.
I'm one of those who once I have been somewhere I can pretty much get there again without a map or satnav but my wife is definitely not in that group.
doebag wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:39
In the 2000 plus comments on this thread I am sure this has been mentioned before, but most of us here on a roads forum have a good working knowledge of the UK road system and have a pretty good mental map of the UK.
While there are lots of comments about notes on bits of paper etc, how does our signage in regards to destinations and routes apper to foreign road users?
I'm sure we all have heard stories or drivers putting in 'Wales' on their satnav and going to the village in Yorkshire, or 'Stamford Bridge' and ending up at the Chelsea FC ground instead of a village east of York.
I'm one of those who once I have been somewhere I can pretty much get there again without a map or satnav but my wife is definitely not in that group.
Well I can answer the reverse, as a British driver I have little problem elsewhere with major roads. US Interstates are a bit sparing especially in user areas but the way junctions are numbered can be a big help.
On I-70 when you cross into West Virginia from Pennsylvania the exits start with 1 and count up to the exit with number being the mileage so the exit for Dallas Pike is 11. The trouble is each state has its own rules and some take the British approach of junctions 1,2,3, 4 etc. This results in the same issue we have with intermediate junctions such as 1A and 1B
KeithW wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 15:41
Well I can answer the reverse, as a British driver I have little problem elsewhere with major roads. US Interstates are a bit sparing especially in user areas but the way junctions are numbered can be a big help...
Well that's the longest answer, to a question that wasn't asked, that I have read here in a long time on here.
doebag wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:39
In the 2000 plus comments on this thread I am sure this has been mentioned before, but most of us here on a roads forum have a good working knowledge of the UK road system and have a pretty good mental map of the UK.
While there are lots of comments about notes on bits of paper etc, how does our signage in regards to destinations and routes apper to foreign road users?
I'm sure we all have heard stories or drivers putting in 'Wales' on their satnav and going to the village in Yorkshire, or 'Stamford Bridge' and ending up at the Chelsea FC ground instead of a village east of York.
I'm one of those who once I have been somewhere I can pretty much get there again without a map or satnav but my wife is definitely not in that group.
Honestly I could imagine it being quite confusing personally especially stuff like the A1/A1(M)/M1 combinations around London. I could imagine the super regional destinations being extremely confusing aswell; like we all know on here what the 'N. WEST' and 'NORTH' is but someone heading to Manchester the capital of The NORTH coming up to this combination - https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3884077 ... 384!8i8192. I'd be lost personally not knowing where I was going and would kind of expect the 'M1' linking the two major cities together.
Like honestly us knowing roads and maps if we got off a ferry at Calais and the destinations were THE SOUTH WEST, THE SOUTH, THE EAST etc we wouldn't have a clue what any of them are. I'd honestly be surprised if most people in the UK know what they are in the UK, never mind, foreigners.
Like another complication The SOUTH from the North East is A1(M) towards Ferrybridge and the A1 towards Grantham avoiding the M18/M1 altogether which is wrong. Not to mention absolute nonsense like this - https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4876878 ... 384!8i8192 considering every sign beyond it on the M18/M1 has Nottingham..?
jabbaboy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 20:15
Like another complication The SOUTH from the North East is A1(M) towards Ferrybridge and the A1 towards Grantham avoiding the M18/M1 altogether which is wrong. Not to mention absolute nonsense like this - https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4876878 ... 384!8i8192 considering every sign beyond it on the M18/M1 has Nottingham..?
Well last time I checked Ferrybridge is indeed south of the North East, You have plenty of signage at Aberford pointing to the M1. Indeed you have to TOTSO to take the A1. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.82622 ... 8192?hl=en
Think yourself lucky you no longer need to plough through central Newcastle over the Tyne Bridge and down the Durham Road, that was no fun at all. Simply put from Newcastle the only way you will reach the M1 is to head south. The sign of course says 'The SOUTH A1(M)' for the simple reason that its accurate.
Similarly getting to Huddersfield from Ferrybridge does in fact require you to head west along the M62, that's geography for you ! I suppose you could leave the A1(M) at Dishforth and crawl through Ripon, Harrogate and Leeds but I wouldn't recommend it.
jabbaboy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 20:15
Like another complication The SOUTH from the North East is A1(M) towards Ferrybridge and the A1 towards Grantham avoiding the M18/M1 altogether which is wrong.
There are areas of the south where the M18/M1 probably isn't the quickest option e.g. Essex, Kent and north and east Herts.
jabbaboy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 20:15
Like another complication The SOUTH from the North East is A1(M) towards Ferrybridge and the A1 towards Grantham avoiding the M18/M1 altogether which is wrong.
There are areas of the south where the M18/M1 probably isn't the quickest option e.g. Essex, Kent and north and east Herts.
The A1(M) turnoff for the M18 at J35 is one place where I'd say super-control destinations would be really useful. The A1(M) is currently signed 'The SOUTH, Newark' at that point, but I'd say that it's a good place to start signing Peterborough as well, with that being roughly halfway between Doncaster and East London and the first major settlement (pop. 180k) in Southern England en route to Essex, the Channel Ports, etc.
"I see the face of a child. He lives in a great city. He is black. Or he is white. He is Mexican, Italian, Polish. None of that matters. What matters, he's an American child"
- Richard Nixon
jgharston wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 00:24
When I was preparing to first drive up to Tarland in 2010, I was puzzled by so many people asking me: "so, you'll have a GPS...?"
No. What on earth for? You just go up the A1 and keep going until you get to the A9 or A90. Once I start seeing signs for Aberdeen, I'll check my notes which tell me to look for the A93, and checking the UK Road Atlas will remind me where to expect it, and once I start seeing signs for Aboyne or Tarland, I'll keep a more attentive look out for the turning I need.
Yes, I passed my test in 2007, and while Google Maps did exist then, and standalone sat nav devices existed, my method of navigation was much the same as yours. I would jot down road numbers and junction numbers where appropriate, with more detailed directions for my destination if it wasn't somewhere I was familiar with. Had no problem heading almost immediately for a drive from North Wales back to St Andrews not long after passing my test, and headed to all sorts of places I hadn't been to before without any major difficulties. These days, if I'm going somewhere I'm less familiar with, I will often have Google Maps navigation on, but that really just tends to be for the 'last mile' type stuff most of the time.
Osthagen wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 00:27
The A1(M) turnoff for the M18 at J35 is one place where I'd say super-control destinations would be really useful. The A1(M) is currently signed 'The SOUTH, Newark' at that point, but I'd say that it's a good place to start signing Peterborough as well, with that being roughly halfway between Doncaster and East London and the first major settlement (pop. 180k) in Southern England en route to Essex, the Channel Ports, etc.
In terms of the road network Newark, which is signed, is far more important as its a major transport nexus as from there you have the choice of continuing south to Peterborough and London, taking the A46 to Leicester and the M1 or SE along the A17 heading to Boston, Sleaford and Kings Lynn where you either head south to Ely, Newmarket and Cambridge or east to Norwich.
orudge wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 09:13
Yes, I passed my test in 2007, and while Google Maps did exist then, and standalone sat nav devices existed, my method of navigation was much the same as yours. I would jot down road numbers and junction numbers where appropriate, with more detailed directions for my destination if it wasn't somewhere I was familiar with. Had no problem heading almost immediately for a drive from North Wales back to St Andrews not long after passing my test, and headed to all sorts of places I hadn't been to before without any major difficulties. These days, if I'm going somewhere I'm less familiar with, I will often have Google Maps navigation on, but that really just tends to be for the 'last mile' type stuff most of the time.
I passed my test in 1970 when the only satellites I had heard of were Sputnik and Telstar yet 2 year later I managed to navigate from Middlesbrough to Lake Konstanz via Calais, Brussels, Koblenz and Stuttgart without getting lost. I did however have an AA continental guide book and its companion the AA Camping and Caravanning guide, we were on a budget after all and Germany was not cheap.
KeithW wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:02
What strategic purposes ?
The reality is that if you are on a reasonable quality dual carriage way route such as the A1 or A2 estimating time left is dependent on traffic levels. When I set out from Middlesbrough heading for Cambridge I know how far it is and unless the Doncaster bypass is playing up how long it should take.
A Route Confirmatory Sign simply tells you what places along the road you can get to and how far away they are, it says nothing about the quality of the road and how long the journey will take.
Take the A1 south of Darrington, depending on how the Doncaster bypass is behaving it could take anything from an hour to 2 hours +. This is why I always have my alternate route via the A60 memorised. There is something deeply satisfying about whizzing along it looking at stationary traffic on the Doncaster Bypass. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.47317 ... 8192?hl=en
Which essentially illustrates my point; signage, be it route confirmation, directional or otherwise, exists predominantly to assist people who aren't familiar with whatever road they're on.
For example, when I was at university for my Masters in Bangor, my now-wife was at university in East London. When she drove up to visit me, she had not the remotest idea how long her journey would take, nor was she familiar with the roads she'd be using. Instead, I simply told her to join the M6 (from the M1) and follow that road until signs for NORTH WALES appeared, at which point follow those.
"I see the face of a child. He lives in a great city. He is black. Or he is white. He is Mexican, Italian, Polish. None of that matters. What matters, he's an American child"
- Richard Nixon
Osthagen wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 23:45
Which essentially illustrates my point; signage, be it route confirmation, directional or otherwise, exists predominantly to assist people who aren't familiar with whatever road they're on.
For example, when I was at university for my Masters in Bangor, my now-wife was at university in East London. When she drove up to visit me, she had not the remotest idea how long her journey would take, nor was she familiar with the roads she'd be using. Instead, I simply told her to join the M6 (from the M1) and follow that road until signs for NORTH WALES appeared, at which point follow those.
I have just one word for you - MAP
Its amazing how much easier it is to find your way with one. I would be astonished to find a pair of graduates who couldn't read maps. I carried an 1" OS Map of the North Yorkshire Moors in my saddle bag everywhere I rode my bike from the age of 12. My favourite place to hang out in school was the map room. As an old Mansion House handed to the council for use as a school it was stuffed with maps of the region. Most are now in the Middlesbrough Archive.
The problem with depending on directions is that it all goes out of the window if there is a major road closure. I have been known to get to Wylfa via the A5 before the A55 got a makeover in the 1990's.
KeithW wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:36
I have just one word for you - MAP
Indeed. Just two weeks ago I went to Sheffield via my afternoon at Northallerton Archives, and at the A172/A19 junction missed the turn-off hidden behind the lorry in front of me, and went past a RCS "Teesside" (on topic!). Ohshtshtshtsht! Heading north I turned off at the first chance, pulled over, checked my maps, and saw I was on a road through East Harlsey that took me back to the A684. And when cycling I'll just set off at random with a map stuffed in my pocket.
As it was all built as part of the A1(M) Leeming to Barton upgrade, I noticed this morning that there was a bunch of ‘hi-viz’ chaps with theodolites taking various measurements/photos etc of the Local Access Road at the junction of the A6055/A6136 to the east of Colburn/Catterick Garrison (at the junction that really needed a roundabout but never got one).
I seem to recall Richmondshire Council made it a condition of the development of the adjoining land that the current ‘T’ junction arrangement be changed to a roundabout. However, with the changeover from District councils to the ‘new’ North Yorkshire Council this coming April, things seem to have got delayed.
Hopefully things maybe inching forwards (slowly) towards getting this junction changed to a roundabout as the traffic queues are known to stretch back over Fort Bridge to the racecourse entrance at times on a morning and are often nearly as bad when the Garrison workers are leaving on an afternoon.
