A489/A483 Newtown, Powys - Bypass Work Starts March 2016 - • Opened 14/02/19 •

[rhyds]

The bit in bold is already a massive problem in Mid Wales.

Indeed. I was astounded that the new bit of the A470 north of Builth Wells didn't include any overtaking sections

To be fair you can easily get past trucks on the long uphil drag out of Llanelwedd, though a few climbing lanes would have been a real bonus. I'd imagine the extra groundworks weren't considered worth the outlay.

[Euan]

Yes it would. Powys is a large, sparsely populated county even by Welsh standards, and so there's a lot of long distance driving done on S2s, and lowering the speed limit from NSL to 50 would be the worst example of ridiculous road planning.

First off, as has been said by Big L the NSL is a limit, not a target, so if a driver feels unable to drive that section of road at NSL then they're free to back off the loud pedal.

There are certainly very few dual carriageways within Powys, other than the A40 bypassing Brecon there are virtually none to speak of. The point I think you are making here is that not every section of S2 road within Powys is of a poor enough quality for 50mph as a limit to be the fastest safe speed all around. For the windy and hilly roads I doubt it would make much of a difference whether the speed limit is 50mph or 60mph - it is unlikely that those speeds could be reached safely anyway, but there would be a slightly more noticeable difference on higher quality roads where 60mph can usually be reached without much difficulty (I think this is quite similar to the last point you made about reasonable roads being subjected to slower speed limits).

Secondly, if you stick signed limits on roads like the A483 through Powys rather than NSL, then many drivers will assume its safe to drive at that limited speed along the entire section, working on the assumption that if such a limit has been set then the road has been surveyed and checked rather than someone sitting in county hall with a highlighter pen and some traffic orders.

That would basically be drivers misunderstanding the signed speeds as targets rather than limits given any condition of the road, traffic levels or weather conditions. Don't drivers already make this error whenever they see plain NSL signs? Unless there are any drivers who think that different types of speed limit signs follow a different set of rules, I would imagine that speeds limits and targets would become confused at any speed.

Thirdly, Powys' road network is pretty much all S2, meaning you only need one Mansel Davies tanker, army convoy or Doris from Dolfor's Daihatsu to keep speeds well below NSL (this also leads in to my next point...)

And finally, Powys, as mentioned above is very big. Its twice the size of the next largest county (Gwynedd) and very empty (25 people per square KM, in comparison North Ayrshire has 153 people per square KM). If you're going to blanket drop speed limits on otherwise perfectly good roads then you're going to have to actively enforce them somehow, otherwise people will simply ignore them. Considering Dyfed-Powys police are claiming poverty and a lack of resources the only other possibility is average speed cameras like Sir Dinbych/Denbighshire have put on the A5104. The problem then is that everyone bunches up behind the slowest vehicle (Mansel, the Major or Doris) and can't overtake as they can't drive and do the mental maths to work out how to get their average speed down before passing the next camera. Average speed cameras are also very expensive bits of equipment, and Powys CC has no money to put them on its roads (well, it claims it doesn't...) and the Trunk Roads agency has more pressing matters to attend to.

Compare that to just 9 people per square km across the Highland region, or with 12 in Argyll & Bute or 8 in Eilean Siar. I do visit the Highlands quite often, so I am certainly no stranger when it comes to large and sparsely populated regions. I wouldn't imagine speed cameras would ever be installed all across such a large local authority area, probably just on very specific stretches of road that might have a poor safety record. The overtaking shouldn't really be happening at all if the driver at the front of the group is actually driving at the speed limit, so if the speed cameras were to observe the overtaking driver speeding it would be their fault rather than the fault of the "slow" driver.

[Chris Bertram]

Don't drivers already make this error whenever they see plain NSL signs? Unless there are any drivers who think that different types of speed limit signs follow a different set of rules, I would imagine that speeds limits and targets would become confused at any speed.

Actually, there *are* different rules. NSL in rural areas without street lighting is signed once, at the beginning of the limit, and there are no repeaters within the extent of the limit (apart from stretches with lighting). Any other limit in a rural area must be signed with repeaters to be valid and enforceable. This can create the impression that the limit is good for driving up to at all times.

[rhyds]

Compare that to just 9 people per square km across the Highland region, or with 12 in Argyll & Bute or 8 in Eilean Siar. I do visit the Highlands quite often, so I am certainly no stranger when it comes to large and sparsely populated regions. I wouldn't imagine speed cameras would ever be installed all across such a large local authority area, probably just on very specific stretches of road that might have a poor safety record. The overtaking shouldn't really be happening at all if the driver at the front of the group is actually driving at the speed limit, so if the speed cameras were to observe the overtaking driver speeding it would be their fault rather than the fault of the "slow" driver.

The problem is that "driving at the speed limit" can be interpreted in very different ways. Take for example my trip today to Wrecsam, which used the A5104 which is an average speed camera enforced 50mph for about 13 miles of S2 due to a number of motorbike accidents. This was previously NSL, was then dropped to 50mph (which everyone ignored as it was a ridiculous limit for such a length of road) and is now average speed camera enforced (the fact the road surface is absolutely terrible for bikers still hasn't been sorted of course!).

When I drive along this road I can just set my cruise control to 50 and apart from one or two bends I can just drive along nicely. The problem is when you get a large and/or heavy vehicle (or a driver who can't drive) and while they might eventually get up to 50 they are either unwilling or unable to accelerate at a reasonable pace, and this can be very frustrating when you're stuck behind one and can't overtake. A few seconds at a higher speed would let me carry on doing my steady 50 ahead of the dawdler with a nice bit of a gap, but average speed enforcement doesn't allow for that and doesn't make the road any safer.

Also, sticking arbitrary limits on sections of road makes zero sense from an enforcement point of view. For example the A483 Wrecsam bypass has a 50mph "emissions" speed limit slapped between two junctions. The fun part was watching cars doing 50mph down the sliproad trying to merge between cars doing 50mph on the mainline in lane 1 and those who knew there was zero enforcement of this ridiculous limit powering through doing 70 in lane 2.

[Euan]

Don't drivers already make this error whenever they see plain NSL signs? Unless there are any drivers who think that different types of speed limit signs follow a different set of rules, I would imagine that speeds limits and targets would become confused at any speed.

Actually, there *are* different rules. NSL in rural areas without street lighting is signed once, at the beginning of the limit, and there are no repeaters within the extent of the limit (apart from stretches with lighting). Any other limit in a rural area must be signed with repeaters to be valid and enforceable. This can create the impression that the limit is good for driving up to at all times.

The difference in rules that I was thinking of was not so much the frequency of the signage, but the false assumption that NSL signs and 50mph speed limit signs have different meanings in terms of actually reaching the limit (as you have pointed out).

[Euan]

Also, sticking arbitrary limits on sections of road makes zero sense from an enforcement point of view. For example the A483 Wrecsam bypass has a 50mph "emissions" speed limit slapped between two junctions. The fun part was watching cars doing 50mph down the sliproad trying to merge between cars doing 50mph on the mainline in lane 1 and those who knew there was zero enforcement of this ridiculous limit powering through doing 70 in lane 2.

In terms of fuel efficiency I think the optimum constant speed to drive at is around 60mph as in, the speed that uses up less fuel per mile than any speed above or below. My dad discovered this at a time when his car had a fault and could not reliably drive at 70mph, now he saves quite a bit on fuel by driving no faster than 60, maybe 65mph. I am not sure whether this directly translates to being the most emission friendly speed, but it does seem to be that cars pollute more CO2 at 30mph than at 60mph.

[Worcestershire Wolf]

"Open within the next two months...."

Hopefully!

https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/tra ... wo-months/

[A303Chris]

"Open within the next two months...."

Hopefully!

https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/tra ... wo-months/

Some good photos in that article

[Norfolktolancashire]

"Open within the next two months...."

Hopefully!

https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/tra ... wo-months/

Some good photos in that article

I love the last image of the top surfaced and lined S2+1 abruptly stopped.

Looking forward to my yearly trip along the spine of Wales on the A483 south to Llanelli which will use part of this bypass.

[C83]

Any info on when this will actually open? It seems to have been nearly finished for a while.

[IAN]

The only information appears to be as in this link as described above by previous posters. Therefore it should be open by 7th March, though presumably the current freezing conditions won't help!

https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/tra ... wo-months/

Ian (M5 Driver)

[Euan]

I would probably stick with the "March" opening date which could be 1 March or 31 March and I suspect that "within two months" is really only saying there are two months to go until the calendar month of the expected opening date.

As always the winter weather could affect the opening date. Although most of January has been fairly benign, there is always a chance that February or March could throw something up later.

[IAN]

http://www.mynewtown.co.uk/viewernews/ArticleId/14220

Mid February?

Ian (M5 Driver)

[Euan]

http://www.mynewtown.co.uk/viewernews/ArticleId/14220

Mid February?

Ian (M5 Driver)

That would be ahead of time if it opened in the middle of this month. Out on the ground does it definitely look ready to open?

[rhyds]

Last time I was in Drenewydd what I could see (the Llanidloes/A489 end) looked very complete with signage and surfacing. The middle of February seems very optimistic but I can see March being a possibility.

[alans]

Newtown bypass will open to traffic February 14th

https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/loc ... -of-bypass

[Euan]

Newtown bypass will open to traffic February 14th

https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/loc ... -of-bypass

Excellent. Hopefully after the bypass is open various parts of Montgomeryshire and Ceredigion will be more accessible from the east as well as better connections towards Wrexham from the southern valleys.

[AAndy]

A multi-million pound bypass that has been 70 years in the planning officially opens in Powys on Thursday.

One haulier said Newtown bypass will make a "big difference" due to 45-minute hold-ups in the town, while the local AM said it was a "momentous" day.

The Welsh Government said the road will ease congestion by about 40% in the town centre.

A public notice printed in 1949 shows a bypass was being considered by the former Montgomeryshire County Council.

The four-mile (6.4km) road runs to the south of the town with two lanes in one direction and one in the opposite direction, to provide overtaking points.

For many in the area, it is hugely important.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-47229757

[IAN]

Used the bypass earlier, No lane restrictions and it appears that everything has been finished - Just needs the grass to grow and the works compound and various pipes and equipment moving. A good road and quiet, even at 5.30 p.m. - Was over in a moment!

Ian (M5 Driver)

[Euan]

Used the bypass earlier, No lane restrictions and it appears that everything has been finished - Just needs the grass to grow and the works compound and various pipes and equipment moving. A good road and quiet, even at 5.30 p.m. - Was over in a moment!

Ian (M5 Driver)

That sounds excellent. Hopefully it will not take too long before the grass does grow back and for the landscape around the road to recover and gradually eliminate the evidence of the construction site to make it a pleasant drive.