A13, millions spent, limits now lower

SarahJ · **Posted:** Thu May 26, 2005 21:15

Last night, for the first time I drove the /a13 from Docklands through east london past Dagenham with all the work done and no cones. And yes, it was very impressive, D3 with GSJ's and walls to prevent non traffic coming anywhere near the road. But what ahve they done. The old road with all it's lights, nearby housing was limited to 50. Now with all the work done, the limit is 40, with lots of Gatso's. and all I could think was Why???
It's almost Motorway standard, local traffic is kept away and 40 with 3 lanes seems so slow and silly. Cars are braking for the cameras all the time and it's hard without cruise control it's hard to keep to. If it was so dangerous, why was it 50 before. I'm just lost at all this money spent, just to slow you down????

SJ :gatso:

ABeaton · **Posted:** Thu May 26, 2005 21:21

Those 40 limts are so :censored:

. 40. THANKS EVIL :twisted:

Ken Livingstone. THANKS! & Spped camaras too. :gatso:

. I would love to see the Botherhood of Nod's Oblisk of light (From the game Command & Conquer) fire a laser into all these supid :gatso:

. If not, a good old tank with explove shells. :twisted:

CJ · **Posted:** Thu May 26, 2005 22:52

Considering it's a new road, what's the justification for the cameras? Don't there have to have been 4 KSI's for them to put them up? Or are they using the accident record from the old road to justify the cameras?

M60-Tony · **Posted:** Thu May 26, 2005 23:14

CJ wrote:

Considering it's a new road, what's the justification for the cameras? Don't there have to have been 4 KSI's for them to put them up? Or are they using the accident record from the old road to justify the cameras?

I recall reading or hearing that the requsite accident record doesn't have to be on the "Scamera'd" road. They can be on an adjacent or nearby one. Even to the extent of putting them on a road that, for example, only crosses the accident road by bridge.

I also think it's true that the definition of KSI (Killed & serious injuries accidents)- well, the SI bit anyway, is a bit flexible and subjective.

Derek · **Posted:** Fri May 27, 2005 09:08

I noticed the limit on (what was going to be) the East Cross route is 40 in places when I went that way the other day.

40 on a D2 is bad, on a D3 it's really daft, there's no speed sensation and I agree it's hard to drive at. Still, it subsidises the council tax I suppose...

Derek

M4Simon · **Posted:** Fri May 27, 2005 09:22

Derek wrote:

I noticed the limit on (what was going to be) the East Cross route is 40 in places when I went that way the other day.

40 on a D2 is bad, on a D3 it's really daft, there's no speed sensation and I agree it's hard to drive at. Still, it subsidises the council tax I suppose...

When were you able to do as much as 40mph along here? It was packed solid on Wednesday afternoon.....

Simon

doebag · **Posted:** Fri May 27, 2005 15:21

Derek wrote:

I noticed the limit on (what was going to be) the East Cross route is 40 in places when I went that way the other day.

40 on a D2 is bad, on a D3 it's really daft, there's no speed sensation and I agree it's hard to drive at. Still, it subsidises the council tax I suppose...

Derek

Would I be right in guessing that if they built the ECR now, the present sight lines, slip road length, distance between junctions would not meet modern standards and the road would look a lot different. The distance between the Old Ford junction and the Bow flyover means there can be a lot of weaving to get in the right lane.

Doebag

c2R · **Posted:** Sat May 28, 2005 21:01

I know what you mean about the new A13 - it's very, very distressing, and somewhat pointless to have that limit and all the 40mph limits on there... I think even most of the anti-car lot would agree that the limit simply isn't appropriate!

Another instance is the A414 at the Hunsdon turn - nice bit of D2 that was upgraded in the late 80s from a bendy derestricted S2. Since it was constructed, it has had the junction remodelled more than once, sight lines improved, carriageways re-aligned, a speed limit of 50mph imposed street lights added, high grip surfacing put on, 4 gatsos, and most recently 50mph flashing warning signs... it makes you wonder what the point in upgrading it was, particularly with the costs of making the dodgey crossing the traffic junction safer over the years would have been either better spent by building a flyover to carry traffic across, or just closing the entrance alltogether.....

Chris

PeterA5145 · **Posted:** Sat May 28, 2005 22:37

I would have thought that, with rare exceptions (such as tightly curved tunnels), the minimum speed limit for a grade-separated dual carriageway with no property accesses should be 50 mph. Even the Mancunian Way, with its notoriously hairy sliproads, is 50 mph.

Sunil_of_Yoxley · **Posted:** Sun May 29, 2005 02:30

There are side roads (though thankfully not many of them), and an adjacent footpath/cycletrack on the Canning Town to Barking section, it's not totally M-way-like as on the new section between Dagenham and the M25 and the older Dual section east of there. I'm not justifying the limits, but the A12 though northern Ilford has always been 40, even on the brief D3 section near Newbury Park station. The new Wanstead tunnel is 30. However the brief tunnel/bend at Leytonstone is 40, and the new A12 through to Hackney is 50.

AIUI, the limits on the A1203/A1261/A13 corridor are 30 through the Limehouse Link, 40 along Aspen Way (1 set of lights), 30 through the East India Dock Link (also 30 westbound on Canning Town Flyover), then 40 all the way to and past the old Lodge Avenue Flyover, 50 through Dagenham (including Renwick Road westbound lights), then 70 between Dagenham and Sadler's Hall farm.

PS. Still waiting for my A13 gallery to be linked directly member sites page

SarahJ · **Posted:** Sun May 29, 2005 12:11

Have you noticed eastbound Sunnil, how the 50 limit starts right at the end of the markers for the gatso. But my point about the 40 was that it was 50 before the change and things are much better now. What is happening is it's become like the A3 into London, cars speeding, then braking hard for the cameras, then shooting off again. All a low limit on a D2/D3 produces is cars bunched up and if you stick to the limit, you find yourself undertaking cars who brake under the limit at cameras and cars sneaking up to you, giving you less escape. eg I was drving the A3, keeping to the limit and a car was right on my blind spot. i knew he was there. a car pulled from a slip road, he never accelerated or braked or even looked. I had to slam on my brakes as there were no where to go. and here was me being a good girl and not sitting in the middle lane like all the rest. I tooted, he gave me a wave, like, sorry, but aghhhhhh.

SJ

Sabrista · **Posted:** Sun May 29, 2005 13:19

Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote:

but the A12 though northern Ilford has always been 40, even on the brief D3 section near Newbury Park station.

I remember when that bit was D3'd, when I was about 5 or 6 (I lived between Oaks Lane & Stapleford Avenue for the first 25 years of my life) - they narrowed the central reserve and took away some of the grass verge, and those residents like my dad, with cars, had to pay for the kerbside to be lowered so that they could drive into the driveway without bumping over the kerb.

It's a very short stretch of D3 (dunno why to this day they didn't do the rest). Putting the speed limit up to 50 then lowering it for the D2 bits would be madness, I guess.

Serena

Sunil_of_Yoxley · **Posted:** Sun May 29, 2005 17:26

SarahJ wrote:

Have you noticed eastbound Sunnil, how the 50 limit starts right at the end of the markers for the gatso. But my point about the 40 was that it was 50 before the change and things are much better now. What is happening is it's become like the A3 into London, cars speeding, then braking hard for the cameras, then shooting off again. All a low limit on a D2/D3 produces is cars bunched up and if you stick to the limit, you find yourself undertaking cars who brake under the limit at cameras and cars sneaking up to you, giving you less escape. eg I was drving the A3, keeping to the limit and a car was right on my blind spot. i knew he was there. a car pulled from a slip road, he never accelerated or braked or even looked. I had to slam on my brakes as there were no where to go. and here was me being a good girl and not sitting in the middle lane like all the rest. I tooted, he gave me a wave, like, sorry, but aghhhhhh.

SJ

Hi Sarah! I mentioned the side roads on the upgraded bit because they are still basically left-in/left-out junctions, with little or no slip-road. I don't mean to offend, but what would have happened if you were doing 50 or 60 when that car pulled out?

Sunil_of_Yoxley · **Posted:** Sun May 29, 2005 17:39

Sabrista wrote:

Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote:

but the A12 though northern Ilford has always been 40, even on the brief D3 section near Newbury Park station.

I remember when that bit was D3'd, when I was about 5 or 6 (I lived between Oaks Lane & Stapleford Avenue for the first 25 years of my life) - they narrowed the central reserve and took away some of the grass verge, and those residents like my dad, with cars, had to pay for the kerbside to be lowered so that they could drive into the driveway without bumping over the kerb.

It's a very short stretch of D3 (dunno why to this day they didn't do the rest). Putting the speed limit up to 50 then lowering it for the D2 bits would be madness, I guess.

Serena

Hmmm. Between 1978 and 1984 I used to live in Lynn Road, just to the south of the A12 off Ley Street. I had to cross the A12 at the old Green Gate lights (now a McDonalds!) on the way to/from school. There was a lollypop man/lady, and I think there still is to this day. We moved to my namesake road just the other side of the A12 in December 1984 (just a few weeks after my 9th birthday) - and guess what? I'm posting from there right now

Glenn A · **Posted:** Sun May 29, 2005 19:26

A 40 mph dual carriageway, I suppose Red Ken will introduce a 30 mph limit on the M1 next. That newt loving pro IRA slimeball gets up my nose. TFL is definitely anti- car. I suppose with all these GATSOs Red Ken can spend even more on the Gay IRA or some other weird minority group. I really can't stand the London Left and its hatred of cars, homeowners, white heterosexual men and the police.

c2R · **Posted:** Sun May 29, 2005 19:48

Glenn A wrote:

A 40 mph dual carriageway, I suppose Red Ken will introduce a 30 mph limit on the M1 next. That newt loving pro IRA slimeball gets up my nose. TFL is definitely anti- car. I suppose with all these GATSOs Red Ken can spend even more on the Gay IRA or some other weird minority group. I really can't stand the London Left and its hatred of cars, homeowners, white heterosexual men and the police.

Hehe, Ken can't do that... the M1 is Highways Agency (o:

SarahJ · **Posted:** Mon May 30, 2005 00:12

Sunnil, no offence, what i was aying is that low limits and loads of GATSO's make cars bunch up, then i would not have had a car gaining on me by 0.5 mph and somewhere to go. i just feel on that stretch on the A13, with all the money spent, they then lowered the limit, thats what i don't understand.

SJ

Glenn A · **Posted:** Mon May 30, 2005 14:56

I'm sure the next thing Red Ken will dream up is a 4 mph speed limit with a man with a red flag walking in front of the car.

Sunil_of_Yoxley · **Posted:** Fri Jan 06, 2006 16:48

Straight from the horse's mouth (ie. Transport for London!):

Quote:

Our ref: SM010544/1DG
Date: 05 January 2005

Dear Dr Prasannan

Street Management

Thank you for your email of 22 December 2005, with regards to the speed limit on the A13.

We determined the existing speed limits on the A13 in consultation with the Police in February 2003.

The most significant change in the speed limits that were in force prior to the A13 Improvement Schemes was the change from 50 mph to 40 mph from just east of Canning Town Flyover to just east of Renwick Road.

The following issues were considered in 2003:

· The emphasis placed by both Central Government and the Mayor of London on encouraging the use of cycling and walking as an alternative to the private car. TfL had instigated improvements to footway/cycleways along the full length of the new build schemes from Canning Town to Alfred's Way Railway Bridge and was examining ways of upgrading footway/cycleways east of this as far as Gale Street. (These works have since been completed) For the majority of this length the footway/cycleway would either be immediately adjacent to the carriageway or separated from the carriageway by only a narrow verge. A reduced traffic speed is considered to greatly improve the environment for walkers and cyclists.

· The link between lower speeds and reduced injury accidents is well established. The 40 mph zone was considered to be assisting the aim of both Central Government and the Mayor in reducing road traffic accidents.

· The major intersections at Canning Town, Prince Regent Lane, Woolwich Manor Way and Movers Lane were provided with grade separated junctions. However, there remain a number of side roads and also private accesses which enter/exit directly onto the A13. The 40 mph limit was considered to assist in making these accesses safer for use.

· The general requirement to progressively reduce traffic speed as motorists travel from the M25 into Central London.

· The Lodge Avenue flyover was provided with a 40 mph speed limit. It is considered necessary to retain this for safety reasons. The reduced speed limit to the west of Lodge Avenue is the only arrangement that would achieve the aim of progressively reducing speed limits.

· The length of the A13 subject to the 40 mph limit is urban/semi-urban in character. Reduced traffic speeds were considered to improve the environment for the local communities in the vicinity of the road.

· The length of the 40 mph zone is approximately 7.5 km. This translates to an additional journey time of less than 1.4 minutes when compared to the pre-existing 50 mph limit. This was considered a small price to pay for increased road safety and the benefits to other road users and the local community.

Thank you again for your email. I hope that this information has been helpful. Please contact me if you require any further assistance.

Yours sincerely

Dominic Gibbins
Surface Transport Communications
Email: enquiries@streetmanagement.org.uk

scynthius726 · **Posted:** Fri Jan 06, 2006 17:03

Glenn A wrote:

I really can't stand the London Left and its hatred of cars, homeowners, white heterosexual men and the police.

I have always found it odd how the Left support liberalisation and discretion in most other laws (most notably drug offences) but rigidity and inflexibility in motoring laws.

A13, millions spent, limits now lower

Who is online