A13: Email from Barking council

[jackal]

I believe if the council or TFL would be bothered with the amount of traffic this caused they will find a solution, realistic or unrealistic doesn't matter as when they really want they get it sorted. we just have to show them that we are, millions of people who are suffering from this, so they should take it into consideration to change asap!!!

Any idea how to contact them and make them aware? (not an email address that goes to Spam and is never responded to )

I know the A13 is busy but used by millions seems a tad over the top.

AADT is about 100,000. 100,000*365=36,500,000 users per year. 36,500,000*20=730,000,000 users over 20 years. Obviously there are many, many repeat users there, but still it doesn't seem far-fetched to suppose that millions of people have been unnecessarily delayed by this junction while this thread has been running.

[jackal]

Realistically, a GSJ at Renwick Road will never happen. The only realistic option, without turning the whole of East London in to a massive car park for at least 18 months is a tunnel.

You think an unsignalised LILO would be unrealistic?

I think the main reasons there are still lights are to make it easier for cyclists and pedestrians to cross Renwick Road, including people going to the bus stop, and to curb flows towards the lane reduction at the Lodge Avenue flyover. Throttling traffic here reduces the amount of vehicles merging to get out of the left hand lane. The plans might have been to wait to sort out this junction until that one was done, but a D3 Lodge Avenue flyover will never happen now.

I don't think it remains signalised out of any conscientious decision of that sort. They closed the right turn (good!) and thought it was not worth reconfiguring the remains of the junction as a GSJ was supposedly coming along "soon." Then a couple of decades went past...

A LILO would feed straight into the staggered junction at Ripple Rd (the S2 one), which could be signalised and a natural place for NMUs to cross.

[WHBM]

We haven't quite got the story here. When the DBFO was set up, around year 2000, the road was to be D3 HQDC throughout. It was later agreed that Renwick Road and the Lodge flyover would be left out of the initial scheme to reduce DBFO payments, but that a fund would be built up from the 30 years of payments to make these improvements at the end of the period, not at the beginning. I have actually posted the documents from this agreement sometime long ago on here, maybe someone can remember where they are. What now seems to have happened is we are getting towards the end of the DBFO and nothing is being done.

The state of the steelwork on the Lodge flyover is now appalling, hence recently being reduced from 40 to 30 mph - extensively rusted, it appears never to have been even painted for many years. There must surely have been something in the DBFO that they would maintain it in a fully serviceable condition.

I always suspected a "deal" from the current TfL management to the DBFO operator (which has been bought, sold, and changed hands a couple of times over the decades, and is now in the hands of financial institutions, a number of them from Spain) to offer say not to do the work, in exchange for not paying for the last few years of the contract, or similar. But certainly, until the contract is varied, Renwick Road junction and the Lodge flyover are contracted to be rebuilt. The drawings must be in the contract somewhere. The dilapidated state of the pub on the Renwick Road corner points to it having some short life expectation.

There certainly has been some variance because the Limehouse Link tunnel/Aspen Way/East India Dock Tunnel, which was a completely separate project with a major Canary Wharf financial contribution (and which cannot be named the A13 without financial repercussions) has been merged together with the DBFO, certainly for Operations, and the whole length from the west portal of the Limehouse Link out to the M25 is operated by one organisation, Road Management Services (A13) Ltd, from their control centre on top of the Limehouse Link tunnel portal.

You think an unsignalised LILO would be unrealistic?

It actually ran like this for a short period after the eastbound right turn was closed off, and the signals discontinued. May even have been the longer term intention. The tight geometry of the turn, no acceleration lane, property boundary of the pub on the corner right out to the A13, heavy through 40 mph traffic in all three A13 lanes, and heavy HGV joining traffic making a tight turn from a standing start, was within days realised to be a no-hoper. When the signals now clear for Renwick Road, most HGVs from there need two lanes of the A13 to swing round the corner.

[jackal]

^ I was assuming improved geometry, probably eating into the pub's grounds.

[KeithW]

AADT is about 100,000. 100,000*365=36,500,000 users per year. 36,500,000*20=730,000,000 users over 20 years. Obviously there are many, many repeat users there, but still it doesn't seem far-fetched to suppose that millions of people have been unnecessarily delayed by this junction while this thread has been running.

A more realistic assumption is that for the most part the same 100,000 people have been held up on their daily commute. There are approx 32 million cars in the UK and 2.6 million in greater London. I lived in Edgware but in the 20 years I lived there I drove the A13 on a handful of occasions, most of my trips were on the A1, M1, M11 and M25

A common route for me was the A41 from the M1 to Apex Corner which carries over 40k but it was largely the same 40,000 every day, I can't imagine too many people think "Its a nice day why don't we take a day trip to Apex Corner"

[SteveA30]

I did once in the 80's, to do the roads and tick the 'Happy Eaters I haven't done yet' box. Now a KFC.

[jackal]

AADT is about 100,000. 100,000*365=36,500,000 users per year. 36,500,000*20=730,000,000 users over 20 years. Obviously there are many, many repeat users there, but still it doesn't seem far-fetched to suppose that millions of people have been unnecessarily delayed by this junction while this thread has been running.

A more realistic assumption is that for the most part the same 100,000 people have been held up on their daily commute. There are approx 32 million cars in the UK and 2.6 million in greater London. I lived in Edgware but in the 20 years I lived there I drove the A13 on a handful of occasions, most of my trips were on the A1, M1, M11 and M25

I did say "many, many repeat users".

By the way, we aren't talking about "cars", but "millions of people" as per Melly. A bus held up could be 70 people delayed, for instance. I used AADT because that's what's available, but further multiplication would be required.

[Chris5156]

AADT is about 100,000. 100,000*365=36,500,000 users per year. 36,500,000*20=730,000,000 users over 20 years. Obviously there are many, many repeat users there, but still it doesn't seem far-fetched to suppose that millions of people have been unnecessarily delayed by this junction while this thread has been running.

A more realistic assumption is that for the most part the same 100,000 people have been held up on their daily commute. There are approx 32 million cars in the UK and 2.6 million in greater London. I lived in Edgware but in the 20 years I lived there I drove the A13 on a handful of occasions, most of my trips were on the A1, M1, M11 and M25

I did say "many, many repeat users".

By the way, we aren't talking about "cars", but "millions of people" as per Melly. A bus held up could be 70 people delayed, for instance. I used AADT because that's what's available, but further multiplication would be required.

I agree, and what’s more I don’t think the absolute number of individual people is the most important thing. Whether it’s the same 100,000 people every day or an entirely different group, the point is the cumulative loss of productive time they experience, the fuel wasted while idling in traffic, and so on, which is negligible when considered for one road user on one day but which adds up, with a hundred thousand people a day over months and years and decades, to a significant effect.

[KeithW]

I agree, and what’s more I don’t think the absolute number of individual people is the most important thing. Whether it’s the same 100,000 people every day or an entirely different group, the point is the cumulative loss of productive time they experience, the fuel wasted while idling in traffic, and so on, which is negligible when considered for one road user on one day but which adds up, with a hundred thousand people a day over months and years and decades, to a significant effect.

All true of course but none of that alters that the road is managed by a PFI scheme that still has 6.5 years to run and most of the major improvements will only be delivered in the final few years. Neither Barking council or TfL can do anything about it.

[Chris5156]

I agree, and what’s more I don’t think the absolute number of individual people is the most important thing. Whether it’s the same 100,000 people every day or an entirely different group, the point is the cumulative loss of productive time they experience, the fuel wasted while idling in traffic, and so on, which is negligible when considered for one road user on one day but which adds up, with a hundred thousand people a day over months and years and decades, to a significant effect.

All true of course but none of that alters that the road is managed by a PFI scheme that still has 6.5 years to run and most of the major improvements will only be delivered in the final few years. Neither Barking council or TfL can do anything about it.

To be pedantic, it’s not impossible: if TfL felt strongly enough about it, they could vary the contract, and presumably pay a penalty to do so. They’ve done that in the past with, for example, the change of speed limit and addition of average speed cameras. But I agree that in reality they’re not going to do that here. It’s an interesting conversation topic and not a manifesto for action!