Can anyone identify this sign?

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Danno B10M
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Can anyone identify this sign?

Postby Danno B10M » Thu Jan 19, 2006 19:04

I snapped this old 'Children' sign today in Oakamoor, not far from me.
When does it date from, or what era? Is it pre-Worboys?
I've not seen one like it before. I should've taken my secateurs.

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ndp
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Re: Can anyone identify this sign?

Postby ndp » Thu Jan 19, 2006 19:32

rsorionboy wrote:I snapped this old 'Children' sign today in Oakamoor, not far from me.
When does it date from, or what era? Is it pre-Worboys?
I've not seen one like it before. I should've taken my secateurs.

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1954 (possibly 1940) standard I think (which is pre Warboys).

The original 1931 standard (as defined in the Maybury Report - the pre-Worboys Worboys Report) had a flaming torch for the symbol with the school sign.

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Re: Can anyone identify this sign?

Postby Paul Townsend » Thu Jan 19, 2006 21:21

ndp wrote:The original 1931 standard (as defined in the Maybury Report - the pre-Worboys Worboys Report) had a flaming torch for the symbol with the school sign.


Actually no. The latter sign specifically indicated a school. This sign refers to a park, playground or other area where there may be children about.

The sign seems to have lost its head - it would have been adorned with a red triangle back in the good old days. Has it just fallen away through rust?

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Postby Danno B10M » Thu Jan 19, 2006 21:23

Thanks for the info gents.
I presume the hedge cutter took the triangle off, although that would've been some time ago. I can't remember ever seeing it.
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Postby c2R » Thu Jan 19, 2006 21:32

rsorionboy wrote:Thanks for the info gents.
I presume the hedge cutter took the triangle off, although that would've been some time ago. I can't remember ever seeing it.


Not that I'd ever advocate criminal damage or theft, but hypothetically speaking the best place to preserve that sign would be somewhere other than it's current location, as it's obviously not looked after, and if you reported it as such it'd only be replaced with a standard one anyway! (o;

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Re: Can anyone identify this sign?

Postby J N Winkler » Thu Jan 19, 2006 21:33

ndp wrote:The original 1931 standard (as defined in the Maybury Report - the pre-Worboys Worboys Report) had a flaming torch for the symbol with the school sign.


"Maybury Report"? Sir Henry retired in 1928 and, as far as I know, had no involvement in developing the new signs later prescribed under the Road Traffic Act, although he did chair a conference in 1929 which dealt with road traffic noise and priority control. According to the D.F.T.'s history of traffic signs (available as an unpriced publication), the first departmental committee on traffic signs was organized in December 1931, the 1922 signs (some of which had been inherited from the L.G.B. circular of 1904) were prescribed in 1932 as an interim measure, and the committee reported in 1933.

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Re: Can anyone identify this sign?

Postby J N Winkler » Thu Jan 19, 2006 21:41

Paul Townsend wrote:
ndp wrote:The original 1931 standard (as defined in the Maybury Report - the pre-Worboys Worboys Report) had a flaming torch for the symbol with the school sign.


Actually no. The latter sign specifically indicated a school. This sign refers to a park, playground or other area where there may be children about.


The 1944 departmental committee report on traffic signs (which I shall dub the "Cook Report" since the committee chairman was Sir Frederick Cook, who had recently retired as Chief Engineer) recommended the use of the torch symbol with both "SCHOOL" and "CHILDREN."

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Re: Can anyone identify this sign?

Postby ndp » Thu Jan 19, 2006 21:44

J N Winkler wrote:
ndp wrote:The original 1931 standard (as defined in the Maybury Report - the pre-Worboys Worboys Report) had a flaming torch for the symbol with the school sign.


"Maybury Report"?


1931 might be poor recallection, but there is a document dated from around that time entitled "Maybury Report - Traffic Signs" in the University of Warwick library. It contains designs for the then-new warning, regulatory and directional signs, and details for signals and the "Llewlyn Smith" typeface, and details on road markings as well.

Incidentally, the "children" plate wasn't mentioned, but then that doesn't mean it wasn't added before the reports finding's were implemented (in the same way barred circles dissappeared between the Worboys report and the 1964 (?) TSRGD.

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Re: Can anyone identify this sign?

Postby J N Winkler » Thu Jan 19, 2006 21:50

I wrote:"Maybury Report"? Sir Henry retired in 1928 and, as far as I know, had no involvement in developing the new signs later prescribed under the Road Traffic Act, although he did chair a conference in 1929 which dealt with road traffic noise and priority control.


Found this reference on B.O.P.C.R.I.S. which confirms that Maybury did indeed chair the departmental traffic signs committee which reported in 1933.

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Re: Can anyone identify this sign?

Postby J N Winkler » Thu Jan 19, 2006 21:59

ndp wrote:1931 might be poor recollection, but there is a document dated from around that time entitled "Maybury Report - Traffic Signs" in the University of Warwick library. It contains designs for the then-new warning, regulatory and directional signs, and details for signals and the "Llewellyn-Smith" typeface, and details on road markings as well.


Thanks for setting me straight. As a matter of fact I have also seen the 1933 report, but not in any recent year, and I last examined it before I fully appreciated the significance of Maybury having been its chairman. It hardly helps that the copy which is nearest me is in the Bodleian library, so I can't simply duplicate it with a digital camera and load it onto an external U.S.B. hard disk for easy reference. When I finally finish my dissertation and have more leisure, one of my first projects is to go to the National Archives and look up the 1933 Committee documentation.

Incidentally, the "children" plate wasn't mentioned, but then that doesn't mean it wasn't added before the report's findings were implemented (in the same way barred circles disappeared between the Worboys report and the 1964 (?) TSRGD.


It is also possible, and in fact very likely, that the "CHILDREN" plate was added by Ministerial authorization between 1933 and issuance of the next set of Regulations, in 1950. According to the D.F.T. history, the 1950 Regulations were issued in a hurry because a judge had chastised the Ministry for failing to keep traffic sign legislation in a single, consolidated document--in the seventeen years intervening, sign authorizations had been issued on little pieces of paper which practitioners had to collect in order to have complete knowledge of which signs were legal and which were not.

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Postby dave_stokie » Sat Jan 21, 2006 22:51

Whereabouts exactly is that sign? I'm fairly close to Oakamoor myself and I often go walking around there but I've never spotted that before!

Well spotted Dan!

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Postby Danno B10M » Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:43

dave_stokie wrote:Whereabouts exactly is that sign? I'm fairly close to Oakamoor myself and I often go walking around there but I've never spotted that before!

Well spotted Dan!


Thanks!

It's as you come in to Oakmoor down Farley Lane, about 150 yards from the main road. :)
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Postby M1J46_A63_A6120 » Tue Jan 24, 2006 15:22

c2R wrote:
rsorionboy wrote:Thanks for the info gents.
I presume the hedge cutter took the triangle off, although that would've been some time ago. I can't remember ever seeing it.


Not that I'd ever advocate criminal damage or theft, but hypothetically speaking the best place to preserve that sign would be somewhere other than it's current location, as it's obviously not looked after, and if you reported it as such it'd only be replaced with a standard one anyway! (o;


Go on, go preserve it, you know you want to. I just wonder though, could the red triangle be somewhere in the bushes?

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Postby Danno B10M » Tue Jan 24, 2006 21:24

The triangle: I doubt it. That hedge is cut each year, so I imagine it's long gone. I didn't spot it when i took the photo, and in all my years of cycling past, I've never seen it.
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