Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

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themadhatter
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by themadhatter » Wed Jan 09, 2019 09:41

"I just looked at the junction on Google as it's not a movement I would ever be making or even thinking of making.:

Oh but it's very convenient. When the oncoming light is red ahead there is no traffic in the way, and it saves you waiting at those lights to turn right a few yards on.

Interesting that Dundee council deny all knowledge of it.

cb a1
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by cb a1 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:46

themadhatter wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 09:41
"I just looked at the junction on Google as it's not a movement I would ever be making or even thinking of making.:

Oh but it's very convenient. When the oncoming light is red ahead there is no traffic in the way, and it saves you waiting at those lights to turn right a few yards on.
I'm sure it is useful, it's just that I never come into Dundee that way as I live up near Tesco Kingsway.
themadhatter wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 09:41
Interesting that Dundee council deny all knowledge of it.
I wouldn't read much into that. You've asked about a bit of road that is the responsibility of Transport Scotland, someone will have given out a 'stock' answer. They won't have sent an email around all the people in the transport department asking if anyone had any knowledge of this.

No, I don't work for Dundee City Council, but I do have experience of asking them questions. You've now got more information, so if you ask a more informed question and you might get a more informed reply.
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novaecosse
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by novaecosse » Wed Jan 09, 2019 21:13

themadhatter wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 09:41
"I just looked at the junction on Google as it's not a movement I would ever be making or even thinking of making.:

Oh but it's very convenient. When the oncoming light is red ahead there is no traffic in the way, and it saves you waiting at those lights to turn right a few yards on.

Interesting that Dundee council deny all knowledge of it.
The primary purpose of the no-right turn is to prevent traffic queuing, at peak times, on the Trunk Road behind right-turners into East Whale Lane, because their is no space for a dedicated right-turn lane.

This used to be a problem with the Port Access via Camperdown Level Crossing, especially when a train was coming, but now sorted out with the replacement bridge and Port Access along at Stannergate, and new right-turn lane at Greendykes Road.

Roodyards Bridge was made left in, left out after a fatal collision involving a right-turning HGV.

themadhatter
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by themadhatter » Thu Jan 10, 2019 07:32

novaecosse wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 21:13
The primary purpose of the no-right turn is to prevent traffic queuing, at peak times, on the Trunk Road behind right-turners into East Whale Lane, because their is no space for a dedicated right-turn lane.
I see the logic, and agree with it, but it is completely unenforced, the sign is easy to miss, and I have never seen a road sign more ignored.

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Big L
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by Big L » Thu Jan 10, 2019 07:38

themadhatter wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 07:32
...and I have never seen a road sign more ignored.
Go stand by a speed limit sign on a motorway!
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by KeithW » Thu Jan 10, 2019 09:04

Big L wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 07:38
themadhatter wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 07:32
...and I have never seen a road sign more ignored.
Go stand by a speed limit sign on a motorway!
I would venture that where speed limit signs on motorways do exist they are better observed than those on most all purpose roads as they are usually on either roadworks sections or Smart Motorways using either SPECS or HADECS 3 cameras with ANPR for enforcement. I know I take them seriously for that reason. If people drive a little faster than the indicated speed but within the ACPO guidelines I regard that as compliance, who am I too argue with a Chief Police Officer :)

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Chris Bertram
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by Chris Bertram » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:01

KeithW wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 09:04
If people drive a little faster than the indicated speed but within the ACPO guidelines I regard that as compliance, who am I to argue with a Chief Police Officer :)
Careful now, you'll have the "you're breaking the law!" brigade out in force with an attitude like that ...
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by AndyB » Thu Jan 10, 2019 13:12

KeithW wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 09:04
Big L wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 07:38
themadhatter wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 07:32
...and I have never seen a road sign more ignored.
Go stand by a speed limit sign on a motorway!
I would venture that where speed limit signs on motorways do exist they are better observed than those on most all purpose roads as they are usually on either roadworks sections or Smart Motorways using either SPECS or HADECS 3 cameras with ANPR for enforcement. I know I take them seriously for that reason. If people drive a little faster than the indicated speed but within the ACPO guidelines I regard that as compliance, who am I too argue with a Chief Police Officer :)
Depends. Some dedicated roads policing teams have a reputation of doing their own mothers for speeding, never mind their own sergeants.

More seriously, road works 50s on NI motorways have an atrocious record for enforcement, ie there is none.

MrEnder666
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by MrEnder666 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 18:46

Altnabreac wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 13:55
MrEnder666 wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 17:03
Dundee (outer) bypass:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1aPHAo ... sp=sharing

Western part is dual carriageway whereas the eastern part (ie east of current A90) is single carriageway.
Looks maybe not too far from plausible, except at the eastern end.

Given the A92 is non trunk I suspect it might get missed off entirely though I personally think that's a mistake and any bypass should continue to Monifieth.

However if it is built I think its very unlikely that the A92 link would be grade separated while the A90 junction at Calverhouse is at grade.

Ideally you'd want a grade separated link from new bypass to A90 northbound but assuming we don't get that I think any eastward A92 extension of the bypass would also be expected to share the resulting roundabout.
I have just added an extra couple of slip roads at the (northern) A90 junction.
Bypass eastbound -> A90 northbound (has priority over traffic leaving roundabout)
A90 southbound -> bypass westbound (has priority over traffic leaving roundabout)

The A92 link has a flat roundabout at the A92, and a few T junctions.

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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by Nwallace » Fri Jan 11, 2019 20:28

novaecosse wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 21:25
themadhatter wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 14:49
I don't know how well people know the "new" dualled A92 from Dundee to Arbroath, but I'm amazed so much of it has a 40 mph limit. Sure there are roundabouts, but these have their own effect of reducing the speed. Forty seems crazily low.
It is crazily low, but it’s set by Dundee City Council, who have a track record of reducing speed limits on their main arterial routes. Transportation have got it into their heads that you can’t have a signalised pedestrian crossing on a road with a limit greater than 40mph. :roll:
It also needs to be remembered that in theory that's an urban dual carriageway... it's just most of the planned houses haven't been built yet...
cb a1 wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 20:56


If you need evidence of vehicles turning right here the Google car snapped its photo at the perfect moment :-). https://goo.gl/maps/kZH73gGjSyR2
Used to be quite handy for skipping the mess that is the East Port Circle, but then so was the old Allan Street Car Park's cut through into the petrol station...

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novaecosse
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by novaecosse » Fri Jan 11, 2019 20:43

themadhatter wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 07:32
novaecosse wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 21:13
The primary purpose of the no-right turn is to prevent traffic queuing, at peak times, on the Trunk Road behind right-turners into East Whale Lane, because their is no space for a dedicated right-turn lane.
I see the logic, and agree with it, but it is completely unenforced, the sign is easy to miss, and I have never seen a road sign more ignored.
There are two signs.
A second was installed earlier this year.

It was always going to be difficult to enforce without a physical island, but DCC would never have stumped up to realign the Trunk Road.

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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by B9127 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 21:15

With proposed traffic lights at the Swallow Circle and the pedestrian lights currently being installed between Forfar Road and Kingsway Tech Circles and the current sets at Forfar Road and Myrekirk Circles it will soon be quicker cutting through by Clepington road etc to get from one end of the town to the A90 Perth Road - I hope they thought of repeater traffic lights back towards Longforgan otherwise there is going be a few rear end shunts on the approach from Perth
Motorways travelled 2018 - M90 -poor show-must improve

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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by paully » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:39

novaecosse wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 21:25
themadhatter wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 14:49
I don't know how well people know the "new" dualled A92 from Dundee to Arbroath, but I'm amazed so much of it has a 40 mph limit. Sure there are roundabouts, but these have their own effect of reducing the speed. Forty seems crazily low.
It is crazily low, but it’s set by Dundee City Council, who have a track record of reducing speed limits on their main arterial routes. Transportation have got it into their heads that you can’t have a signalised pedestrian crossing on a road with a limit greater than 40mph. :roll:
It is stupidly low, and at the time the new A92 opened, I always thought it crazy that the speed limit was the same as on the Perth Road on this stretch (https://goo.gl/maps/okXXqHmPTqB2). This has now been reduced to a more sensible 30mph.

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Euan
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by Euan » Mon Jan 14, 2019 22:51

paully wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:39
novaecosse wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 21:25
themadhatter wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 14:49
I don't know how well people know the "new" dualled A92 from Dundee to Arbroath, but I'm amazed so much of it has a 40 mph limit. Sure there are roundabouts, but these have their own effect of reducing the speed. Forty seems crazily low.
It is crazily low, but it’s set by Dundee City Council, who have a track record of reducing speed limits on their main arterial routes. Transportation have got it into their heads that you can’t have a signalised pedestrian crossing on a road with a limit greater than 40mph. :roll:
It is stupidly low, and at the time the new A92 opened, I always thought it crazy that the speed limit was the same as on the Perth Road on this stretch (https://goo.gl/maps/okXXqHmPTqB2). This has now been reduced to a more sensible 30mph.
It is quite unusual for an urban road away from the edge of town like that to have a 40mph speed limit - perhaps because it is a very straight route? Or perhaps because much of the traffic passing through the area would be expected to use the A85 instead? What is particularly unusual about this case is that the road is not a dual carriageway in which case it might be expected to hold a 40mph speed limit.
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by Nwallace » Thu Jan 17, 2019 00:11

The Perth Roads 40mph limit from the Riverside drive TOTSO to the Invergowrie junction dated from when it was the A85... And Riverside avenue was opened in the late 80s iirc.

I've just had a horrifying thought, if the swallow circle is only partially in Dundee does that mean it's actually a semi-circle?


On the A94 thoughts, Did anyone divert that way today?

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novaecosse
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by novaecosse » Thu Jan 17, 2019 19:56

Nwallace wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 00:11
The Perth Roads 40mph limit from the Riverside drive TOTSO to the Invergowrie junction dated from when it was the A85... And Riverside avenue was opened in the late 80s iirc.

I've just had a horrifying thought, if the swallow circle is only partially in Dundee does that mean it's actually a semi-circle?


On the A94 thoughts, Did anyone divert that way today?

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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by B9127 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 20:36

Travelled along the Kingsway the other day and after the new pedestrian crossing lights are installed I can well imagine the travel time from the Black Watch Memorial through to Bullionfield will be horrendous and even worse after Swallow Circle gets signals - wouldn't put it past Dundee City to reduce the speed limit from Tesco Extra to Bullionfield to 40mph
Motorways travelled 2018 - M90 -poor show-must improve

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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by cb a1 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 23:02

B9127 wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 20:36
Travelled along the Kingsway the other day and after the new pedestrian crossing lights are installed I can well imagine the travel time from the Black Watch Memorial through to Bullionfield will be horrendous and even worse after Swallow Circle gets signals - wouldn't put it past Dundee City to reduce the speed limit from Tesco Extra to Bullionfield to 40mph.
Using Dundee City Council roads to get from Tesco Extra to Bullionfield, apart from a short section of the A85 all their roads are 30mph.

The Kingsway from Tesco Extra to Bullionfield is the responsibility of Transport Scotland. They did their speed limit review in about 2011/12 which resulted in the section of the Kingsway from Clepington Road GSJ to Forfar Rd being reduced from 50mph to 40mph. Don't know if there are any proposals in the planning to reduce any speed limits further.
Education makes the wise slightly wiser, but it makes the fool vastly more dangerous. N. Taleb
We tend to demand impossible standards of proof from our opponents but accept any old rubbish to support our beliefs.
The human paradox that is common sense
The Backfire Effect

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