[IRL] M20 Cork to Limerick Motorway EIS published

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Re: [IRL] M20 Cork to Limerick Motorway EIS published

Post by odlum » Fri Mar 15, 2019 02:19

The Devil's Armpit wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 21:33
How these major works are funded would be an interesting read
They are funded mostly through central government funds or occasionally public private partnerships. This is not a PPP scheme though so funding is from the govt.

The EIB could also choose to invest in some projects. We don't get what we use to for projects from the EU anymore.
Last edited by odlum on Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [IRL] M20 Cork to Limerick Motorway EIS published

Post by Euan » Fri Mar 15, 2019 07:03

It will be good to eventually see the M20 completed. Amongst the non Dublin based motorway projects in Ireland this one would probably be the most useful with Cork and Limerick being the 2nd and 3rd largest cities in the Republic respectively...

...And of course it would complete a small segment of the longer term Atlantic Corridor proposals, although the most important part running from Cork to Galway would be near enough complete.
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Re: [IRL] M20 Cork to Limerick Motorway EIS published

Post by si404 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 09:45

Berk wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 22:55
I keep hearing that Scotland has 7 cities, but what order do they come in?? :?:
by population it goes: Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Dundee, Inverness, Perth, Stirling

by more abstract measures, such as the stuff looked at for the granting of city status, Edinburgh would probably be #1 and Aberdeen/Dundee and Perth/Stirling might swap places, but none of that matters for the OPs point.

So the cities linked are 1-2 (M8), 2-8 (M90), 2-9 (M90) and 1-9 (M80).

The key reason why Glasgow/Edinburgh won't be linked by motorway to Dundee and Aberdeen is one of the law of diminishing returns. It's all dual carriageway currently with many junctions grade-separated - unlike the single-carriageway and often low-quality N20 - the piecemeal upgrade to mid-quality makes a wholesale high-quality upgrade less likely. Why upgrade the route to motorway, when right turns can be removed, a few more junctions grade-separated, etc for far less cost? See also the A1 Peterborough-Blyth (which has slightly more traffic). Dundee could get a motorway standard bypass, but would Perth-Dundee get upgraded to join them up? Probably not.
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Re: [IRL] M20 Cork to Limerick Motorway EIS published

Post by Euan » Fri Mar 15, 2019 22:23

si404 wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 09:45
The key reason why Glasgow/Edinburgh won't be linked by motorway to Dundee and Aberdeen is one of the law of diminishing returns. It's all dual carriageway currently with many junctions grade-separated - unlike the single-carriageway and often low-quality N20 - the piecemeal upgrade to mid-quality makes a wholesale high-quality upgrade less likely. Why upgrade the route to motorway, when right turns can be removed, a few more junctions grade-separated, etc for far less cost? See also the A1 Peterborough-Blyth (which has slightly more traffic). Dundee could get a motorway standard bypass, but would Perth-Dundee get upgraded to join them up? Probably not.
I think that is probably one of the main reasons for there being no motorways linking Aberdeen and Dundee to the Central Belt with what later became the A90 being dualled the whole way between the two cities. In a similar context, I suspect that there would not be as many motorways crossing Ireland now had the existing main roads been dualled or at least substantially upgraded earlier on. The N20 would only be one example of this sort of idea, I think many parts of the N7 and N8 were also left unimproved for many years before the M7 and M8 were built.
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Re: [IRL] M20 Cork to Limerick Motorway EIS published

Post by bothar » Fri Mar 15, 2019 22:33

Euan wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 22:23
I think that is probably one of the main reasons for there being no motorways linking Aberdeen and Dundee to the Central Belt with what later became the A90 being dualled the whole way between the two cities. In a similar context, I suspect that there would not be as many motorways crossing Ireland now had the existing main roads been dualled or at least substantially upgraded earlier on. The N20 would only be one example of this sort of idea, I think many parts of the N7 and N8 were also left unimproved for many years before the M7 and M8 were built.
As stated above, the mediocre is the enemy of the excellent.
You have a similar problem in NI where the A1 might have been an appropriate design in the 1960s but it is well below par now.
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Re: [IRL] M20 Cork to Limerick Motorway EIS published

Post by Owain » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:20

bothar wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 22:33
As stated above, the mediocre is the enemy of the excellent.
You have a similar problem in NI where the A1 might have been an appropriate design in the 1960s but it is well below par now.

Not least this monstrosity:
Screenshot (21).png
From Belfast, the logical way to access the A1 for Dublin would be to simply turn off at J7 and join it. However, the signage makes absolutely no mention of that, and tells you to carry on along the motorway for Dublin!

It's not until J8 that signage tells you to turn off for Dublin, sending you along a funny little link road instead of directly onto the A1.

Not only does the signed route take you a mile or so out of your way, but the proximity of J8 to J7 can mislead the unfamiliar into thinking that they'll be staying on the motorway for quite a while after staying on at 7. There was at least one occasion when I almost missed the signed Dublin exit (by overtaking in lane 2, thinking that it would be several more miles to my exit!), because of the whole set up.

If they really must send long-distance traffic via J8, I don't know why the A101 is not simply signed as "A1".
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Re: [IRL] M20 Cork to Limerick Motorway EIS published

Post by AndyB » Sat Mar 16, 2019 15:54

Dear me. Someone hasn't noticed the double fork signs at 1 mile and 1/2 mile to J7 ;)

J8 is part future proofing against a road from the north of J8 across to Knockmore Road, and part capacity diversion from the Sprucefield shopping centre maelstrom at J7. As built, J7 was a simple roundabout and trumpet, with no shopping centre.

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Re: [IRL] M20 Cork to Limerick Motorway EIS published

Post by c2R » Sat Mar 16, 2019 16:24

Also, J7 is often more congested at the roundabout- it depends on the time of day/night I'm travelling through, but certainly on a Saturday afternoon you're best avoiding the roundabout at Sprucefield and joining /leaving at 8
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Re: [IRL] M20 Cork to Limerick Motorway EIS published

Post by Johnathan404 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 16:28

I thought J7 had been designed deliberately, to create a Mecca for anybody who worships bad planning on the strategic road network.
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Re: [IRL] M20 Cork to Limerick Motorway EIS published

Post by Graham » Sat Mar 16, 2019 16:57

I'm a little curious as to why the road has been put in this corridor. A casual look a map suggests an alterative of building a motorway from Limerick to Cahir, with a spur motorway (cutting off the corner) between Mitchelstown and Tipperary. This would provide a good link between Cork and Limerick, and would also improve the route between Limerick and the towns (and ferries) in the southeast.

Is there something I am missing here? Would this overload the M8 south of Mitchelstown? Is the land north of Mitchelstown too difficult to build a road through?

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Re: [IRL] M20 Cork to Limerick Motorway EIS published

Post by odlum » Sat Mar 16, 2019 17:26

It's suppose to be a direct motorway from Limerick to Cork. Not sure they want it contaminated by Cork to Dublin just for regional connectivity reasons (the myth that all motorways go to Dublin).

It also provides more redundancy helping communties along the route to develop and be connected to the national network.

And...there is high terrain in the way on the M8 too between Mitchelstown and Cashel (although i'm not sure the extent to which this was taken in to account).


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Re: [IRL] M20 Cork to Limerick Motorway EIS published

Post by Euan » Sat Mar 16, 2019 22:23

Graham wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 16:57
I'm a little curious as to why the road has been put in this corridor. A casual look a map suggests an alterative of building a motorway from Limerick to Cahir, with a spur motorway (cutting off the corner) between Mitchelstown and Tipperary. This would provide a good link between Cork and Limerick, and would also improve the route between Limerick and the towns (and ferries) in the southeast.

Is there something I am missing here? Would this overload the M8 south of Mitchelstown? Is the land north of Mitchelstown too difficult to build a road through?
I doubt it would be numbered M20 if it had been planned to link Limerick to Cahir, i.e. along the corridor of the N24.

For a Limerick - M8 connection this would be the most sensible route to take, but for Limerick - Cork traffic it would be a big detour compared to the route of the N20.

Odlum's right about the difficult terrain at Mitchelstown - I doubt engineers would be keen on ploughing through the Galtee Mountains which would restrict the route of a potential motorway to the point that it would either only be useful for ferry traffic or Cork traffic, but not both. I doubt there is an easy way for this project to improve connections to the SE ports while fulfilling the original purpose of linking Limerick to Cork.
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Re: [IRL] M20 Cork to Limerick Motorway EIS published

Post by odlum » Sun Mar 17, 2019 02:04

Ironically enough the N24 between Limerick and Waterford is also due to be upgraded in the future. I have read elsewhere at least part of this route could be upgraded to a motorway! But that's a long way out timewise.

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