The future of smart motorways

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Roavin
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Roavin »

Keiji wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 06:58 Related to the smart motorway topic, I came across a video showing in practice how one gets out of an emergency layby when traffic is solid...

https://youtu.be/2ZqU1odIgjU?t=22m13s

Relevant section starts at 22:13
HE call starts at 23:14
Watching the main carriageway from 30:54
Moves off at 31:35

So all in all... eight minutes to exit an emergency layby, while causing a lane 1 closure and 50 limit on the main carriageway at the time, compared to accelerating on a hard shoulder and pulling out without disturbing the traffic.
I dislike the idea of replacing hard shoulders with emergency laybys for this very reason. VSLs, however, if implemented reasonably, can be quite useful in preventing accidents and even congestion in some cases.
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haymansafc
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by haymansafc »

I've disliked Smart Motorways right from their initial conception and have made no secret of that fact on here in the past. Whilst I understand why they've been built, I question their safety, the use of the reduced speed limits and ease of use compared to regular motorways (i.e - random closure of lanes / sudden lane gains with the hard shoulder coming into use). I don't like using them and even with the use of cruise control, find myself looking at the speedo much more than what I normally would do. Something I predicted would happen even before the first example opened...

With regards to the linked video featuring KevTee, I'm glad he had the number for Highways England on his phone, because I don't have a clue what it is. Unless there's notices in the emergency refuge areas, of course. I don't even know what I would have to do if I found myself having to stop in that situation. I presume you're charged for that phone call also? Even then it's a complete faff. Having to phone them up, giving them all your details, explaining what happened and then waiting in hope they'll not only close lane one but that others will move over once the lane has closed. Again, I refer to the confusion I was talking about above. I'm sorry, but I fail to see what's 'smart' about that compared to simply speeding up on the traditional hard shoulder from standstill, no phone calls needed, and then indicating to move into lane one once up to speed.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Bryn666 »

There's this amazing thing in ERAs called an "Emergency Telephone".

It's free to use and puts you direct to the motorway control centre... as they have been doing since 1959.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Berk »

Yes, but the earlier phones connected you with police. What sort of response time do HETO’s have?? And what powers to control traffic have they got that differ from police??

I know they have some, but are they able to radio the Control Centre for immediate response and so on??
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by darkcape »

Roavin wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 15:43
Keiji wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 06:58 Related to the smart motorway topic, I came across a video showing in practice how one gets out of an emergency layby when traffic is solid...

https://youtu.be/2ZqU1odIgjU?t=22m13s

Relevant section starts at 22:13
HE call starts at 23:14
Watching the main carriageway from 30:54
Moves off at 31:35

So all in all... eight minutes to exit an emergency layby, while causing a lane 1 closure and 50 limit on the main carriageway at the time, compared to accelerating on a hard shoulder and pulling out without disturbing the traffic.
I dislike the idea of replacing hard shoulders with emergency laybys for this very reason. VSLs, however, if implemented reasonably, can be quite useful in preventing accidents and even congestion in some cases.
On the other hand this weekend a video was shared on Twitter from a traffic officer of a vehicle pulling from the hard shoulder into Lane 1 straight from a standing start.....but yeah sure hard shoulders are safer.
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Roavin
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Roavin »

darkcape wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 19:56
Roavin wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 15:43
Keiji wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 06:58 Related to the smart motorway topic, I came across a video showing in practice how one gets out of an emergency layby when traffic is solid...

https://youtu.be/2ZqU1odIgjU?t=22m13s

Relevant section starts at 22:13
HE call starts at 23:14
Watching the main carriageway from 30:54
Moves off at 31:35

So all in all... eight minutes to exit an emergency layby, while causing a lane 1 closure and 50 limit on the main carriageway at the time, compared to accelerating on a hard shoulder and pulling out without disturbing the traffic.
I dislike the idea of replacing hard shoulders with emergency laybys for this very reason. VSLs, however, if implemented reasonably, can be quite useful in preventing accidents and even congestion in some cases.
On the other hand this weekend a video was shared on Twitter from a traffic officer of a vehicle pulling from the hard shoulder into Lane 1 straight from a standing start.....but yeah sure hard shoulders are safer.
That's why I still support VSL. If traffic is going at 40mph rather than 60+ it is much easier and less dangerous for vehicles to pull out of the hard shoulder on to the carriageway.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by ais523 »

haymansafc wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 16:23With regards to the linked video featuring KevTee, I'm glad he had the number for Highways England on his phone, because I don't have a clue what it is.
0300 123 5000. This number is frequently advertised at the entrance to roadworks, and has been the same for many years now (and is fairly easy to memorise).
Unless there's notices in the emergency refuge areas, of course.
There are phones that connect directly, together with (in more recent smart motorways) notices telling you to use them (here's one on the M1). This is why the number needs to be stated explicitly only at the start of roadworks (which often prevent you getting to anywhere that it's safe to stop, whether emergency refuge or hard shoulder).

According to the comments on the video, though, there was nobody picking up the phone on this occasion, which is why there was a need to contact HE directly. That seems like something of a problem. (In general, my current opinion on smart motorways is approximated by "they would be a good idea if only there were more people monitoring them for problems", and this incident doesn't change that much.)
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Berk »

That’s actually quite a good textbook example of what a converted motorway should look like. My only concern is are the MS4’s clear enough (Lane 1 closed/Lanes 1+2 closed, move right)??

Are there any examples of MS4 messages?? Are they in the Highway Code yet??
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by haymansafc »

darkcape wrote:On the other hand this weekend a video was shared on Twitter from a traffic officer of a vehicle pulling from the hard shoulder into Lane 1 straight from a standing start.....but yeah sure hard shoulders are safer.
That traffic officer should know better but having heard that, it doesn't overly surprise me... I've seen some 'interesting' things from them in the past.

But yes, at least with a dedicated hard shoulder there's no need for phone calls, no need to wait and no need to close a lane. It's just a case of accelerate back up to speed, give plenty of indication and pull back out into lane one. That is simple...and considerably easier than an emergency refuge.
ais523 wrote:According to the comments on the video, though, there was nobody picking up the phone on this occasion, which is why there was a need to contact HE directly. That seems like something of a problem. (In general, my current opinion on smart motorways is approximated by "they would be a good idea if only there were more people monitoring them for problems", and this incident doesn't change that much.)
Indeed. He seemed to have trouble in getting through. Even after he got through and explained the situation, he was still sitting there for several minutes waiting for traffic to move over. However to be fair to the operator, that was explained.

If I was a HGV driver and working on the clock, I'd be worried about those additional few minutes sitting around having deliveries on the trailer that need doing. It could be the difference between a customer getting one day or the next.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Chris5156 »

haymansafc wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 09:12
darkcape wrote:On the other hand this weekend a video was shared on Twitter from a traffic officer of a vehicle pulling from the hard shoulder into Lane 1 straight from a standing start.....but yeah sure hard shoulders are safer.
That traffic officer should know better but having heard that, it doesn't overly surprise me... I've seen some 'interesting' things from them in the past.
No, the video was recorded by a Traffic Officer. It showed another vehicle entering lane 1 from a standing start. The Traffic Officer didn’t do that.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Truvelo »

Chris5156 wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:07
haymansafc wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 09:12
darkcape wrote:On the other hand this weekend a video was shared on Twitter from a traffic officer of a vehicle pulling from the hard shoulder into Lane 1 straight from a standing start.....but yeah sure hard shoulders are safer.
That traffic officer should know better but having heard that, it doesn't overly surprise me... I've seen some 'interesting' things from them in the past.
No, the video was recorded by a Traffic Officer. It showed another vehicle entering lane 1 from a standing start. The Traffic Officer didn’t do that.
I can't see it being a problem if it was a fast accelerating car and the traffic was light. Just like pulling out of a layby onto a D2, if you have your right indicator flashing most traffic will move across to let you out.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by AndyB »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 19:18 There's this amazing thing in ERAs called an "Emergency Telephone".

It's free to use and puts you direct to the motorway control centre... as they have been doing since 1959.
Berk wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 19:28 Yes, but the earlier phones connected you with police. What sort of response time do HETO’s have?? And what powers to control traffic have they got that differ from police??

I know they have some, but are they able to radio the Control Centre for immediate response and so on??
In NI, the phones connect to police Belfast Regional Control (except for the M2 Ballymena bypass, which connects to Ballymena police station). I recently pulled over onto the hard shoulder due to debris in Lane 2 just north of Sandyknowes, which turned out to be the mudguard of a lorry, and couldn't get an answer on the nearest emergency phone, so I drove the short distance into the motorway services and dialled 999.

In England, in the absence of a notice to the contrary, the first thing I would think would be 999 or 101 depending on whether it was an immediate and serious danger to other road users. On the hard shoulder? Probably not even worth dialling 101. In Lane 3, or just over the brow of a hill poking into Lane 1? 999, and let the police decide whether to deal with it or call HE.

EDIT: if you want a point to this, it's that all other things being equal, a breakdown on a Hard Shoulder is only dangerous for those on the Hard Shoulder, and the phones are there if you cannot safely resolve the breakdown yourself. A standby breakdown truck in roadworks will clear the road when someone breaks down. But if you cannot safely get to a telephone or a notice with the correct number, what else would you do?
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by ais523 »

Berk wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 03:29 That’s actually quite a good textbook example of what a converted motorway should look like. My only concern is are the MS4’s clear enough (Lane 1 closed/Lanes 1+2 closed, move right)??

Are there any examples of MS4 messages?? Are they in the Highway Code yet??
Know Your Traffic Signs, the official publication explaining them, only gets as far as MS1 and AMI signals (unless it's been updated since last time I looked, which is well after MS4s became common); there isn't even a description of how to understand an MS2 or MS3, let alone MS4 (although I guess they expected MS2s and MS3s to be obvious if you know how to read an MS1?).

There is documentation of how signs should look on MS4s, but it's in TSRGD 2016 Schedule 15, "Matrix signs and light signals for the control of moving traffic on motorways and dual carriageway roads"; this is publicly available, and thus the sort of document that anyone really interested in the rules for traffic signs is likely to read to sate their curiosity, but it's also not the sort of thing you'd expect a typical driver to read. Interestingly, most of the symbols are explained as applying to any sort of VMS, with distinctions listed in cases where it varies (e.g. the "move 1 lane to the right" symbol has different versions when obviously applicable to a single lane (Diagram 6002, normally used on AMIs) and when context is needed to explain what lane it applies to (Diagram 6002.1, normally used on MS4s). Likewise, the "lane closing ahead" signal has two variants: Diagram 6008.2 is used on signs that can show it (MS4s and whatever those fixed taper point signs are called), and Diagram 6008 is used on signs that can't (MS1, MS3; an MS2 shows only text and thus can't show either signal). (That said, I've never seen a Diagram 6008.2 actually used on an MS4 in practice! They're normally set to use red Xes instead, even in advance of the closure, when a red X is only supposed to be used after the lane has closed or to close the lane in its own right).

The following schedule, Schedule 16, contains information on how to word MS2 and MS3 messages (and MS4s when used to show text rather than lane diagrams); it's interesting that it's not just free text (at least legally), there are actual requirements on how the messages should be worded. (These seem, in practice, to be followed only for messages which are serious enough to require the flashing amber lights to be switched on; most message I've seen without them don't follow the requirements there.)

Also interesting is that there's apparently a general rule (TSRGD 2016 Schedule 16, Part 1, Paragraph 1(6)) allowing VMSes to show any sign that's approved in any other context, as long as they can do a good approximation of how it looks: black/white and black/yellow swaps are allowed, but otherwise they have to match it more or less exactly (in particular, they need red in the same place). Interestingly, this appears to be the only thing allowing MS4s to show mandatory rather than advisory speed limits (when they show a speed limit in a red circle, that's just the normal "maximum speed limit" sign with a black/white swap, rather than something approved specifically for MS4s).
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by JonH »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 19:18 There's this amazing thing in ERAs called an "Emergency Telephone".

It's free to use and puts you direct to the motorway control centre... as they have been doing since 1959.
Pity you have to be in an ERA to use it.

Last week the exact same stretch of M3 had a lane closure three days in a row because the vehicle that broke down couldn't get to the ERA.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Bendo »

JonH wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 13:09Last week the exact same stretch of M3 had a lane closure three days in a row because the vehicle that broke down couldn't get to the ERA.
Ohh an actual example of a stopped vehicle triggering a lane closure?
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by mikehindsonevans »

A lane closure southbound on the smart M6 section was well managed and well communicated. Red X to the left of three open arrows and a big 40 displayed. The contraflow around j13 is in place and working well.

No, the broken down vehicle had not reached the ERA. I am relaying this because Her Ladyship was driving and I was asleep.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by Conekicker »

Bad one this morning on the M1 northbound just north of J34. In pretty much the same location as a fatal last year as well.

https://www.thestar.co.uk/news/traffic- ... ield-70698

Edit: 2 dead, tragic.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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Some interesting background and other information about Smart Motorways here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-48783615
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Re: The future of smart motorways

Post by nowster »

I wonder if the Matt in the BBC article is our Matthew.
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Re: The future of smart motorways

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nowster wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:06 I wonder if the Matt in the BBC article is our Matthew.
I’ve met our Matthew and it’s not!
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