M25 south-west quadrant

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jackal
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by jackal » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:14

Enceladus wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 03:30
I presume the only way to really address the M25 issue is high capacity, high speed rail and better integrated multi-modal transport solutions. And perhaps a partial outer Western orbital route connecting the M3 to the M40.

Can people be coaxed out of their cars if good quality, reliable rail systems are there as an alternative? I would like to think so but remain somewhat sceptical...
Berk wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 03:40
They should soon be available. Thameslink’s extended services are coming back in December, and Crossrail won’t be far away.
Can't wait to see that solving M25 congestion :wink:

By the time a motorway is as congested as the M25 SW quadrant it's virtually impossible to do anything for it with public transport. Most journeys can never be shifted (strategic, goods vehicles, shopping runs, families, rural origin/destination, etc) and the minority that can be will largely be replaced with new journeys, including from those previously making public transport distress purchases. Public transport investment will always run out before M25 suppressed demand.

Where there's the need, by all means build public transport infrastructure. Crossrail 1? Crossrail 2? Bring it on. More capacity and reduced journey times across London has got to be a good thing. But we should be realistic about what it can and can't achieve. Wishful thinking only gets us into HS2-style fiascos.

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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by Bryn666 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 14:20

jackal wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:14
Enceladus wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 03:30
I presume the only way to really address the M25 issue is high capacity, high speed rail and better integrated multi-modal transport solutions. And perhaps a partial outer Western orbital route connecting the M3 to the M40.

Can people be coaxed out of their cars if good quality, reliable rail systems are there as an alternative? I would like to think so but remain somewhat sceptical...
Berk wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 03:40
They should soon be available. Thameslink’s extended services are coming back in December, and Crossrail won’t be far away.
Can't wait to see that solving M25 congestion :wink:

By the time a motorway is as congested as the M25 SW quadrant it's virtually impossible to do anything for it with public transport. Most journeys can never be shifted (strategic, goods vehicles, shopping runs, families, rural origin/destination, etc) and the minority that can be will largely be replaced with new journeys, including from those previously making public transport distress purchases. Public transport investment will always run out before M25 suppressed demand.

Where there's the need, by all means build public transport infrastructure. Crossrail 1? Crossrail 2? Bring it on. More capacity and reduced journey times across London has got to be a good thing. But we should be realistic about what it can and can't achieve. Wishful thinking only gets us into HS2-style fiascos.
People will just have to learn to get used to M25 jams then, because continually widening it won't make a difference either.
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by jackal » Wed Sep 11, 2019 18:27

Bryn666 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 14:20
jackal wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:14
Enceladus wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 03:30
I presume the only way to really address the M25 issue is high capacity, high speed rail and better integrated multi-modal transport solutions. And perhaps a partial outer Western orbital route connecting the M3 to the M40.

Can people be coaxed out of their cars if good quality, reliable rail systems are there as an alternative? I would like to think so but remain somewhat sceptical...
Berk wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 03:40
They should soon be available. Thameslink’s extended services are coming back in December, and Crossrail won’t be far away.
Can't wait to see that solving M25 congestion :wink:

By the time a motorway is as congested as the M25 SW quadrant it's virtually impossible to do anything for it with public transport. Most journeys can never be shifted (strategic, goods vehicles, shopping runs, families, rural origin/destination, etc) and the minority that can be will largely be replaced with new journeys, including from those previously making public transport distress purchases. Public transport investment will always run out before M25 suppressed demand.

Where there's the need, by all means build public transport infrastructure. Crossrail 1? Crossrail 2? Bring it on. More capacity and reduced journey times across London has got to be a good thing. But we should be realistic about what it can and can't achieve. Wishful thinking only gets us into HS2-style fiascos.
People will just have to learn to get used to M25 jams then, because continually widening it won't make a difference either.
Well I don't think a jam-free M25 is a realistic objective. But widening would do an awful lot more for it than public transport would.

As a simple illustration, suppose you built a perfect mirror of the existing M25 to bypass J10-16 at a cost of £10bn. That's taking half of existing traffic off the current road, which is an order of magnitude more than a public transport investment at the same price would do for it. This is because the bypass is clearly a much more targeted improvement that's useful for every current M25 user, not only the small minority of them that happen to have an exact combination of route, load, and purpose that makes the new public transport option more desirable than the road.

That's not to say the £10bn on the widening is actually better value than the £10bn on public transport. It's likely to be worse for climate change, connectivity into London, etc, and maybe it's worse overall. But if we're taking relief of the M25 as our objective, which the SW quadrant study supposedly does, then an M25 improvement will obviously achieve far more in that respect, and that's true even if it achieves less all things considered.

I am really just stating the obvious, but it seems it does need to be stated, for HE's benefit as much as anyone. And no, I don't actually think they get their network strategy from Sabre :)

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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by Micro The Maniac » Wed Sep 11, 2019 18:54

Berk wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 03:40
They should soon be available. Thameslink’s extended services are coming back in December, and Crossrail won’t be far away.
But yet again we have London-centric... Thameslink and CrossLink are fine for getting from the suburbs to London. But our rail system is pathetic (and expensive) at getting from a suburb to a suburb without going via London.

Farnborough to Milton Keynes avoiding London?
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by Bryn666 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 19:01

That's one of the reasons the M25 is knackered because all rail goes via London so people drive.

The same happens in Manchester where all rail journey's end up on a viaduct across the city centre.
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by c2R » Wed Sep 11, 2019 19:13

The solution surely has to be to improve road links further out, essentially with an outer London orbital consisting of a south coast motorway from Exeter to the Channel Tunnel, improvements to the A34, and the Oxford to Cambridge link, as well additional crossings in East London and improvements to the M11, to try and get strategic traffic away from London and the M25. Like it or not, road travel is clearly here to stay, and the emphasis has to be on allowing the free flow of strategic traffic and freight.

By all means, the government should investigate improvements to public transport in and around London, but actually, as with road travels there's so much suppressed demand I'd expect that it won't make any difference to congestion - just as the Cambridge guided busway made absolutely no impact on congestion on the A14 between Cambridge and Huntingdon.
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by Vierwielen » Wed Sep 11, 2019 22:11

Micro The Maniac wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 18:54
Berk wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 03:40
They should soon be available. Thameslink’s extended services are coming back in December, and Crossrail won’t be far away.
But yet again we have London-centric... Thameslink and CrossLink are fine for getting from the suburbs to London. But our rail system is pathetic (and expensive) at getting from a suburb to a suburb without going via London.

Farnborough to Milton Keynes avoiding London?
Farnborough to Milton Keynes is a right pain because Waterloo is a terminus. If however, Waterloo and Liverpool Street were linked up with a stop at Blackfriars and Euston and London Bridge were linked up, also with a stop at Blackfriars, then Farnborough to Milton Keynes would be a lot easier with a changeover at Blackfriars where one would catch the Dover-Rugby train. This is roughly what the Belgium did. At the start of the 20th Century, four lines met in Brussels, the lines to Oostende and to the French border meeting at Bruxelles-du-midi and the lines to the Dutch and German borders meeting at Brussel-Noord. In 1907 a tunnel linking the two station was opened with the result that the core Belgian railway operation consists of an east-west operation and a north-south operation.

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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by Vierwielen » Wed Sep 11, 2019 22:17

Bryn666 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 14:20
People will just have to learn to get used to M25 jams then, because continually widening it won't make a difference either.
Widening will not solve the M25's problems, but building of strategic roads that are not radial coudl remove a fair amount of traffic. For example, a road linking the M25 to the M40 via Leatherhead, Guildford and Reading or a road linking the M3 to the M25 via Basingstoke, Reading and Beaconsfield.

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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by Micro The Maniac » Thu Sep 12, 2019 07:39

Vierwielen wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 22:11
Farnborough to Milton Keynes is a right pain because Waterloo is a terminus. If however, Waterloo and Liverpool Street were linked up with a stop at Blackfriars and Euston and London Bridge were linked up, also with a stop at Blackfriars, then Farnborough to Milton Keynes would be a lot easier with a changeover at Blackfriars where one would catch the Dover-Rugby train.
Yebbut... travellig via London is a pointless route - just as I wouldn't dream of driving from the M3 to the A1 via the A316, A4, A501, A41.
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by Big L » Thu Sep 12, 2019 07:44

I'm reasonably certain there is an outer London railway loop that saves you from going into the centre and going across underground. Overground, I believe it's called.
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by RichardA35 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 08:21

Micro The Maniac wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 07:39
Vierwielen wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 22:11
Farnborough to Milton Keynes is a right pain because Waterloo is a terminus. If however, Waterloo and Liverpool Street were linked up with a stop at Blackfriars and Euston and London Bridge were linked up, also with a stop at Blackfriars, then Farnborough to Milton Keynes would be a lot easier with a changeover at Blackfriars where one would catch the Dover-Rugby train.
Yebbut... travellig via London is a pointless route - just as I wouldn't dream of driving from the M3 to the A1 via the A316, A4, A501, A41.
Err....Farnborough is only served by the stoppers, so change at Clapham Junction and there is a through service to MK run by Southern. Total journey = 1 change, 2 hours.
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by BOH » Thu Sep 12, 2019 08:49

Big L wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 07:44
I'm reasonably certain there is an outer London railway loop that saves you from going into the centre and going across underground. Overground, I believe it's called.
There is but the Overground is largely self-contained but is for high frequency / high capacity commuter routes and not through trains. Through services were tried (Basingstoke to Norwich I believe) via the North London Line loop but was poorly used. The trouble is, with conventional double track you cannot easily mix high frequency commuter services with fast long distance trains. So you are right, there are outer avoiding lines around London but not really suitable as M25 avoiders.

The trouble is with this idealistic shift to rail is it simply is not convenient or cost effective for so many journeys unless you live very close to a station with a direct service to destination. Take the example of a family of 4 who live near Farnborough who want to visit relatives near Watford and neither family live within 5 minutes walk of their nearest train station. By train, the trip involves a bus or taxi to and from each station and then a train journey that will no doubt involve a change / wait at some point for a connecting train. Coupled with on a train trip you are paying 4x some items (4x train fares, 4x bus tickets) and this journey by train starts to become very, very expensive when compared to the car which is a 1x cost. The car gets you from door-to-door, in air conditioned comfort and you are guaranteed to all sit together too. The sheer faff factor of buses, waiting for a train, probably having to change en-route (even with an outer M25 style ring railway) risk of a missed connection, not being able to sit together and then a bus or taxi at the destination would put most people off. Plus your visit has to be planned around the train and bus timetable whereas with a car you just leave and return whenever you want. Which would you choose?

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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by BOH » Thu Sep 12, 2019 08:56

RichardA35 wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 08:21
Micro The Maniac wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 07:39
Vierwielen wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 22:11
Farnborough to Milton Keynes is a right pain because Waterloo is a terminus. If however, Waterloo and Liverpool Street were linked up with a stop at Blackfriars and Euston and London Bridge were linked up, also with a stop at Blackfriars, then Farnborough to Milton Keynes would be a lot easier with a changeover at Blackfriars where one would catch the Dover-Rugby train.
Yebbut... travellig via London is a pointless route - just as I wouldn't dream of driving from the M3 to the A1 via the A316, A4, A501, A41.
Err....Farnborough is only served by the stoppers, so change at Clapham Junction and there is a through service to MK run by Southern. Total journey = 1 change, 2 hours.
Journey Planners are available on the internet for the hard of thinking or for those who haven't caught up since the demise of steam.... :D
Yes but funnily enough I used to do that journey frequently as Network Rail have their HQ in Milton Keynes and I lived near Guildford. Taking that route (but from Guildford) via Clapham Junction is a complete pain because the CJ to MK sector is only hourly, is frequently cancelled and in the event of a timetable reduction (strikes / weather / staff shortage etc) it is the first to be cancelled completely for the whole day. It may appear in the timetable as an option avoiding London but in practice it is so unpredictable that I always either drove or went up to Waterloo, tube to Euston and then out on the WCML. So much more reliable and also a much more frequent service too

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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by Bryn666 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:38

BOH wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 08:49
Big L wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 07:44
I'm reasonably certain there is an outer London railway loop that saves you from going into the centre and going across underground. Overground, I believe it's called.
There is but the Overground is largely self-contained but is for high frequency / high capacity commuter routes and not through trains. Through services were tried (Basingstoke to Norwich I believe) via the North London Line loop but was poorly used. The trouble is, with conventional double track you cannot easily mix high frequency commuter services with fast long distance trains. So you are right, there are outer avoiding lines around London but not really suitable as M25 avoiders.

The trouble is with this idealistic shift to rail is it simply is not convenient or cost effective for so many journeys unless you live very close to a station with a direct service to destination. Take the example of a family of 4 who live near Farnborough who want to visit relatives near Watford and neither family live within 5 minutes walk of their nearest train station. By train, the trip involves a bus or taxi to and from each station and then a train journey that will no doubt involve a change / wait at some point for a connecting train. Coupled with on a train trip you are paying 4x some items (4x train fares, 4x bus tickets) and this journey by train starts to become very, very expensive when compared to the car which is a 1x cost. The car gets you from door-to-door, in air conditioned comfort and you are guaranteed to all sit together too. The sheer faff factor of buses, waiting for a train, probably having to change en-route (even with an outer M25 style ring railway) risk of a missed connection, not being able to sit together and then a bus or taxi at the destination would put most people off. Plus your visit has to be planned around the train and bus timetable whereas with a car you just leave and return whenever you want. Which would you choose?
It's single occupancy journeys that cause the bulk of congestion. No one sane would question taking a family of four in a car somewhere if that's the easiest and most convenient means to do so.
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by BOH » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:21

Bryn666 wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:38
BOH wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 08:49
Big L wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 07:44
I'm reasonably certain there is an outer London railway loop that saves you from going into the centre and going across underground. Overground, I believe it's called.
There is but the Overground is largely self-contained but is for high frequency / high capacity commuter routes and not through trains. Through services were tried (Basingstoke to Norwich I believe) via the North London Line loop but was poorly used. The trouble is, with conventional double track you cannot easily mix high frequency commuter services with fast long distance trains. So you are right, there are outer avoiding lines around London but not really suitable as M25 avoiders.

The trouble is with this idealistic shift to rail is it simply is not convenient or cost effective for so many journeys unless you live very close to a station with a direct service to destination. Take the example of a family of 4 who live near Farnborough who want to visit relatives near Watford and neither family live within 5 minutes walk of their nearest train station. By train, the trip involves a bus or taxi to and from each station and then a train journey that will no doubt involve a change / wait at some point for a connecting train. Coupled with on a train trip you are paying 4x some items (4x train fares, 4x bus tickets) and this journey by train starts to become very, very expensive when compared to the car which is a 1x cost. The car gets you from door-to-door, in air conditioned comfort and you are guaranteed to all sit together too. The sheer faff factor of buses, waiting for a train, probably having to change en-route (even with an outer M25 style ring railway) risk of a missed connection, not being able to sit together and then a bus or taxi at the destination would put most people off. Plus your visit has to be planned around the train and bus timetable whereas with a car you just leave and return whenever you want. Which would you choose?
It's single occupancy journeys that cause the bulk of congestion. No one sane would question taking a family of four in a car somewhere if that's the easiest and most convenient means to do so.
Same applies in this instance. The sheer hassle factor of the bus / taxi at each end, reliance on a train service and having to adhere to a timetable will put most people off. I frequently travel from my place near Bournemouth to LGW and it is always quicker and less stress to drive because both routes (via Clapham J or Chichester) involve a change and overcrowded trains that are frequently prone to strikes / disruption / cancellations due to staff shortages. Is so easy to miss a connection and that can add up to an hour to the journey.

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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by c2R » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:49

That's just it though- the car genie has been let out of the bottle. Realistically, it's not going to go back in again unless it's a lot nicer, quicker, cheaper, or more reliable to go by train; or if the stick being used to dissuede car use is really, really big....

For example, Aylesbury from Tunbridge Wells arriving before 9am involves at least 4 changes, costs more, and takes longer than by car. And that's not including getting to/from the stations at each end.
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by Bryn666 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:56

c2R wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:49
That's just it though- the car genie has been let out of the bottle. Realistically, it's not going to go back in again unless it's a lot nicer, quicker, cheaper, or more reliable to go by train; or if the stick being used to dissuede car use is really, really big....

For example, Aylesbury from Tunbridge Wells arriving before 9am involves at least 4 changes, costs more, and takes longer than by car. And that's not including getting to/from the stations at each end.
That's still legions away from a solo occupancy car trip 2.5 mile trip in say, Birmingham.
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by Chris Bertram » Thu Sep 12, 2019 13:29

Bryn666 wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:56
c2R wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:49
That's just it though- the car genie has been let out of the bottle. Realistically, it's not going to go back in again unless it's a lot nicer, quicker, cheaper, or more reliable to go by train; or if the stick being used to dissuede car use is really, really big....

For example, Aylesbury from Tunbridge Wells arriving before 9am involves at least 4 changes, costs more, and takes longer than by car. And that's not including getting to/from the stations at each end.
That's still legions away from a solo occupancy car trip 2.5 mile trip in say, Birmingham.
Where in Birmingham are you trying to get from/to? As in most major towns and cities, most bus routes are radial, and you'll probably end up having to go into/out of town with a change of bus involved - and since Birmingham doesn't have a central bus station, the stops are distributed around the streets so you might need to walk half a mile from one to the other. And if you're taking or collecting goods, or there's a time-critical aspect to your trip ... well, you get my drift, I'm sure.
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by c2R » Thu Sep 12, 2019 13:40

Bryn666 wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:56
c2R wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:49
That's just it though- the car genie has been let out of the bottle. Realistically, it's not going to go back in again unless it's a lot nicer, quicker, cheaper, or more reliable to go by train; or if the stick being used to dissuede car use is really, really big....

For example, Aylesbury from Tunbridge Wells arriving before 9am involves at least 4 changes, costs more, and takes longer than by car. And that's not including getting to/from the stations at each end.
That's still legions away from a solo occupancy car trip 2.5 mile trip in say, Birmingham.
Oh, absolutely - as I've often said, everything should be done that is possible to try and encourage more walking, cycling, and use of public transport - I'm forever trying to get my local councils to improve NMU facilities, and also disabled accesses - slopes instead of steps where possible, dropped kerbs at crossings, tactile paving. While it's far, far worse in suburban and rural areas in Ireland than it is in England, England doesn't exactly set a high barrier to aim for either.

Another problem is obviously that local facilities close, such as village shops and post offices, which then means people have to travel to shop, or have stuff delivered by courier, and with a lack of segregated footpaths, it makes it difficult or impossible to walk or cycle to the next nearest, so people instead get in their cars and drive to the next out of town one.

What I don't believe we need are additional road corridors, other than bypasses that should have been built years ago, and safety improvements, and motorway upgrades on strategic routes, - with the proviso that these should not be constructed as development routes to increase car dependent development and congestion. Therefore, while I wouldn't support a new orbital route around London, but at the same time, I think there is a case for the upgrade of the existing M25 to separate local and strategic traffic, and also to upgrade the long distance routes as described yesterday in this thread.
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by Micro The Maniac » Thu Sep 12, 2019 18:54

RichardA35 wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 08:21
Err....Farnborough is only served by the stoppers, so change at Clapham Junction and there is a through service to MK run by Southern. Total journey = 1 change, 2 hours.
Journey Planners are available on the internet for the hard of thinking or for those who haven't caught up since the demise of steam.... :D
I'm aware of the Clapham route thanks - but that is far enough into London to count as London - in fact, it will be within the Congestion Charge Zone in 2021...

On my visits to the MK area, I need to be there for 8:30(ish)... I can reliably do it in an hour or so, 70 miles door to door (or less than four gallons in fuel for the return run), with a guarantee of a seat, enjoying my own music, etc.

Alternatively... Farnborough Main to Milton Keynes Central, 05:56 from FNM arrives 08:02... but add approx 30 minutes to get to FNM (at that time of the morning it's a walk, but it's no quicker by bus anyway, given bus-stop locations and routes). I could drive to the station, and pay £9.70 for a day's parking, I suppose, since I have stuff to carry... Meanwhile the return route is 18:12/20:13 plus walk home. An extra three hours travel-time a day, and for the princely sum of £77.80 standard class since I have the audacity to want to travel at a time that is less inconvenient.

I'll stick with my car...
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... reality is frequently inaccurate!

2019 Completions
Motorways: M3, M11, M27, M40, M42, M45, M48, M50, M53, M54, M55, M56, M69, M271, M275... A3(M), A48(M), A308(M), A404(M)
The A 'F99': A31, A32, A33, A37, A42, A49, A50, A51, A53, A54

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