Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

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Herned
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Herned » Mon Dec 02, 2019 18:54

EpicChef wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 18:31
All the more reason to push that bit further and upgrade the section to motorway - the road would fall into HE's hands and the government and they can do more with it eg VSL, MIDAS, lane control all managed from a new London based Regional Control Centre.
I have no problem with discussing what could and should be done to improve the road network, within the bounds of what is remotely realistic. Upgrading ANY road within the M25 to motorway is incredibly unlikely to happen before the heat death of the universe, so discussing it seems entirely pointless

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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by KeithW » Mon Dec 02, 2019 18:58

EpicChef wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 18:31

All the more reason to push that bit further and upgrade the section to motorway - the road would fall into HE's hands and the government and they can do more with it eg VSL, MIDAS, lane control all managed from a new London based Regional Control Centre.
HE dont need the hassle, dont have a budget for it and it has already been passed to TfL by the DfT.

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Bryn666
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Bryn666 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 19:29

Still not getting where all this traffic is meant to go. It is making assumptions that traffic is going across London when it is probably looking for parking spaces.

Without demolishing swathes of the urban area for parking these roads will have no purpose.

As for viaducts everywhere, no one in London wants them. Saying "we demand you have this" is pointless.
Bryn
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by trickstat » Mon Dec 02, 2019 19:55

KeithW wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 18:37
thatapanydude wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 13:15

As I have said many times before we should be showing ambition in London to finish off easy parts of the network. Buying off those houses on the A406 should not be that hard as I would imagine market values to be low on those properties which front the A406, which would allow schemes such as free-flowing A406(N) to A40(E).

Red = 50mph standard grade separated, Blue = 70mph motorway standard with VSL. In this scheme I would also build a Thames to Eltham link for the A2 to access the A406.
Not as cheap as you think I suspect.
https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/prope ... road-nw10/
Looking at overall house prices for NW10 that is well below the average, but it is probably still more expensive than 95% of the country and therefore would not be cheap land to buy up. If values were massively lower than elsewhere in that part of London you could have issues concerning where the residents could move to when there may be children settled at local schools or people whose businesses or jobs are nearby and may not fit with a long commute.

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EpicChef
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by EpicChef » Mon Dec 02, 2019 23:17

Herned wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 18:54
EpicChef wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 18:31
All the more reason to push that bit further and upgrade the section to motorway - the road would fall into HE's hands and the government and they can do more with it eg VSL, MIDAS, lane control all managed from a new London based Regional Control Centre.
I have no problem with discussing what could and should be done to improve the road network, within the bounds of what is remotely realistic. Upgrading ANY road within the M25 to motorway is incredibly unlikely to happen before the heat death of the universe, so discussing it seems entirely pointless
One thing that needs to happen ASAP though is the M1 Stirling Corner Link, or at least a Junction 3 around that area (but south of J4) to allow traffic to enter the M1 South without having to go all the way to Watford. The Hendon Urban Motorway is remarkably quiet, even at peak hours, and I’ve had enough of going down to the A406 and facing queues and signals while an empty free flowing 70mph route zooms overhead. Spreading the traffic onto the M1 will also mean less congestion around Brent Cross as A406 West traffic can use the M1.
Motorways are getting smart. Has their teacher told them how to spell "hard shoulder" yet?

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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by KeithW » Tue Dec 03, 2019 00:22

EpicChef wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 23:17

One thing that needs to happen ASAP though is the M1 Stirling Corner Link, or at least a Junction 3 around that area (but south of J4) to allow traffic to enter the M1 South without having to go all the way to Watford. The Hendon Urban Motorway is remarkably quiet, even at peak hours, and I’ve had enough of going down to the A406 and facing queues and signals while an empty free flowing 70mph route zooms overhead. Spreading the traffic onto the M1 will also mean less congestion around Brent Cross as A406 West traffic can use the M1.
Sorry we are not about to build you a private motorway slip road.

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EpicChef
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by EpicChef » Tue Dec 03, 2019 00:27

KeithW wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 00:22
EpicChef wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 23:17

One thing that needs to happen ASAP though is the M1 Stirling Corner Link, or at least a Junction 3 around that area (but south of J4) to allow traffic to enter the M1 South without having to go all the way to Watford. The Hendon Urban Motorway is remarkably quiet, even at peak hours, and I’ve had enough of going down to the A406 and facing queues and signals while an empty free flowing 70mph route zooms overhead. Spreading the traffic onto the M1 will also mean less congestion around Brent Cross as A406 West traffic can use the M1.
Sorry we are not about to build you a private motorway slip road.
:bang: Do you really think that's the point? Do you not think that the other residents in this area, if they were to be told that originally we'd be able to drive into London or at least towards the A406 using the M1, they'd think that the link deserved to be there? It would help traffic flow faster and be more spread out. Millions of pounds from the national budget were taken to build the Hendon Urban Motorway, and it is severely underused in my opinion, because local traffic cannot use it to drive down towards the A406.
Motorways are getting smart. Has their teacher told them how to spell "hard shoulder" yet?

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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Herned » Tue Dec 03, 2019 07:24

EpicChef wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 00:27
Millions of pounds from the national budget were taken to build the Hendon Urban Motorway, and it is severely underused in my opinion, because local traffic cannot use it to drive down towards the A406.
That's a fair point, however do you think the roundabout at Staples Corner could cope with the extra traffic? The Brent Cross redevelopment is bound to add extra traffic already, so I'm not convinced there is any spare capacity

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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Big L » Tue Dec 03, 2019 07:32

EpicChef wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 00:27
...Millions of pounds from the national budget were taken to build the Hendon Urban Motorway, and it is severely underused in my opinion, because local traffic cannot use it to drive down towards the A406.
But that section of M1 is quiet now because many many more millions were spent building the M25.
Make poetry history.

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trickstat
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by trickstat » Tue Dec 03, 2019 07:32

EpicChef wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 00:27
KeithW wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 00:22
EpicChef wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 23:17

One thing that needs to happen ASAP though is the M1 Stirling Corner Link, or at least a Junction 3 around that area (but south of J4) to allow traffic to enter the M1 South without having to go all the way to Watford. The Hendon Urban Motorway is remarkably quiet, even at peak hours, and I’ve had enough of going down to the A406 and facing queues and signals while an empty free flowing 70mph route zooms overhead. Spreading the traffic onto the M1 will also mean less congestion around Brent Cross as A406 West traffic can use the M1.
Sorry we are not about to build you a private motorway slip road.
:bang: Do you really think that's the point? Do you not think that the other residents in this area, if they were to be told that originally we'd be able to drive into London or at least towards the A406 using the M1, they'd think that the link deserved to be there? It would help traffic flow faster and be more spread out. Millions of pounds from the national budget were taken to build the Hendon Urban Motorway, and it is severely underused in my opinion, because local traffic cannot use it to drive down towards the A406.
As it hasn't happened in the last 50 years (including the time before the M25 when it would have been useful for more destinations), I see no reason to suppose that it will happen anytime in the near future.

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Bryn666
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Bryn666 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 07:55

The design of the M1 inside Ringway 3 was to prevent overloading of the inner Ringway network by local traffic except for at key points.

No Ringways means no need for the Stirling Corner link.

It would be more useful to have the abandoned Northern Line projects finished.
Bryn
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by doebag » Tue Dec 03, 2019 09:41

Herned wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 18:54
EpicChef wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 18:31
All the more reason to push that bit further and upgrade the section to motorway - the road would fall into HE's hands and the government and they can do more with it eg VSL, MIDAS, lane control all managed from a new London based Regional Control Centre.
I have no problem with discussing what could and should be done to improve the road network, within the bounds of what is remotely realistic. Upgrading ANY road within the M25 to motorway is incredibly unlikely to happen before the heat death of the universe, so discussing it seems entirely pointless
I agree, maybe this all needs moving to the fantasy roads thread ?

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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by KeithW » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:02

EpicChef wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 00:27
KeithW wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 00:22
EpicChef wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 23:17

One thing that needs to happen ASAP though is the M1 Stirling Corner Link, or at least a Junction 3 around that area (but south of J4) to allow traffic to enter the M1 South without having to go all the way to Watford. The Hendon Urban Motorway is remarkably quiet, even at peak hours, and I’ve had enough of going down to the A406 and facing queues and signals while an empty free flowing 70mph route zooms overhead. Spreading the traffic onto the M1 will also mean less congestion around Brent Cross as A406 West traffic can use the M1.
Sorry we are not about to build you a private motorway slip road.
:bang: Do you really think that's the point? Do you not think that the other residents in this area, if they were to be told that originally we'd be able to drive into London or at least towards the A406 using the M1, they'd think that the link deserved to be there? It would help traffic flow faster and be more spread out. Millions of pounds from the national budget were taken to build the Hendon Urban Motorway, and it is severely underused in my opinion, because local traffic cannot use it to drive down towards the A406.
Plans for the initial Stirling Corner link were cancelled over 40 years ago. The idea was briefly resurrected as part of the Roads for Prosperity Scheme but then abandoned again in 1993 partly as a result of local opposition to road schemes but mainly because spending money on roads funnelling more road traffic into London was considered a bad idea.

Given that you propounded the idea referring to your own personal convenience one can hardly be surprised when that is pointed out. As for other residents I wonder how many would support a plan that involved building a busy motorway link across Scratchwood Open Space and the golf course.

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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Chris5156 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:05

Herned wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 07:24
EpicChef wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 00:27
Millions of pounds from the national budget were taken to build the Hendon Urban Motorway, and it is severely underused in my opinion, because local traffic cannot use it to drive down towards the A406.
That's a fair point, however do you think the roundabout at Staples Corner could cope with the extra traffic? The Brent Cross redevelopment is bound to add extra traffic already, so I'm not convinced there is any spare capacity
The other point of view is that the A1/A41 through Mill Hill is already seriously congested and passes through residential and shopping areas. So while I agree it would cause greater congestion at Staples Corner, the argument for building the Scratchwood Link is surely that it’s better to relocate the congestion to a major junction away from people’s houses than to allow it to persist in a residential area.

There is also the consideration that not everything coming down the Scratchwood Link onto the M1 would stay on to Staples Corner; a proportion of it would leave again at J2 to rejoin the A1.

However, as Bryn points out, traffic flows have changed considerably and before building the Scratchwood Link you’d have to evaluate how much traffic coming down the A1 at Stirling Corner has a destination at or beyond the North Circular. I bet it’s actually very little of it these days.

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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by KeithW » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:17

RichardA35 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 17:11
This statement is not actually supported by the list below which, on reading the full document, is really a checklist scope for the consultant to focus his price, investigations and report.
Yes it is likely that some or all of the items will need attention to a larger or lesser degree, but at the time of the letting of the contract to the consultant, this was a shopping list of services identifying the "kitchen sink" approach of all possibilities.
It is up to the consultant to assess and determine the exact condition of the structure, the extent of any defects and propose refurbishment with a repair strategy and programme agreed to conform to the Client's budget.
It is however amply supported by the report that prompted the formulation of this contract.
https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/improvements-and-projects/a40-westway wrote: Background
The group of structures known collectively as the Westway carry the A40 for 4.6km from Wood Lane flyover in the west to the Marylebone flyover in the east.

The structures were built between 1964 and 1970. Maintenance work has been done in the past - including waterproofing the deck and improving the expansion joints - but several components have reached or are nearing the end of their life.

Major maintenance/refurbishment work is needed to secure the long term reliability of the Westway.

We inspected and surveyed all residential and business premises beneath the Westway between November 2015 and January 2016 to help us understand its condition before we inspected the structures themselves in summer 2017.
It was this early survey work that prompted the deferral of the work so that sufficient resources (money) could be made available. Given the known problems that have appeared on similar elevated roads around the country including the Thelwall Viaduct, Oldbury Viaduct and Huntingdon Viaduct this should not be a surprise.

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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Berk » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:37

As long as they’re given proper structural repairs - not simply demolished as “too expensive” after years of no maintenance.

In an ideal world they might have NSL restored, but 50 or 60 would be more than fine.

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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Bryn666 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:25

Berk wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:37
As long as they’re given proper structural repairs - not simply demolished as “too expensive” after years of no maintenance.

In an ideal world they might have NSL restored, but 50 or 60 would be more than fine.
The Westway was never 70, and the increase in traffic noise in making it so would be unacceptable in the urban area around it. Demolishing the Westway is as politically difficult/impossible as extending it, it's now a very annoying inconvenience for maintenance crews but an essential lifeline for traffic flows around Shepherd's Bush.

Even without the Ringways, the Westway was bound to happen in some shape or form. That's why it exists. Unlike the folly of the M41 which required Westfield for it to make any sense once the rest of the WCR was cancelled, it serves a major purpose.
Bryn
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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by EpicChef » Tue Dec 03, 2019 16:11

Chris5156 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:05
Herned wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 07:24
EpicChef wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 00:27
Millions of pounds from the national budget were taken to build the Hendon Urban Motorway, and it is severely underused in my opinion, because local traffic cannot use it to drive down towards the A406.
That's a fair point, however do you think the roundabout at Staples Corner could cope with the extra traffic? The Brent Cross redevelopment is bound to add extra traffic already, so I'm not convinced there is any spare capacity
The other point of view is that the A1/A41 through Mill Hill is already seriously congested and passes through residential and shopping areas. So while I agree it would cause greater congestion at Staples Corner, the argument for building the Scratchwood Link is surely that it’s better to relocate the congestion to a major junction away from people’s houses than to allow it to persist in a residential area.

There is also the consideration that not everything coming down the Scratchwood Link onto the M1 would stay on to Staples Corner; a proportion of it would leave again at J2 to rejoin the A1.

However, as Bryn points out, traffic flows have changed considerably and before building the Scratchwood Link you’d have to evaluate how much traffic coming down the A1 at Stirling Corner has a destination at or beyond the North Circular. I bet it’s actually very little of it these days.
Keep in mind that traffic living in Borehamwood Elstree Barnet or those regions could also use the (finished) London Gateway Roundabout to bypass the M25 for the M1 North - or even as a way to get up to the westward M25 without having to deal with the problem that is M25 J23, leaving users of the services, M25 East and A1M to use the junction.
Motorways are getting smart. Has their teacher told them how to spell "hard shoulder" yet?

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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by Truvelo » Tue Dec 03, 2019 16:40

The speed limits were already determined before the A40(M) and M41 were built.
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How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
Big and complex.

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Re: Is it time to remove the old A40(M) Westway?

Post by EpicChef » Sun Dec 08, 2019 13:17

Just to keep things civil, when I talk about extending the M40, for those who are against it, I'm purely playing devil's advocate. I didn't make it clear earlier but yes I am.
Motorways are getting smart. Has their teacher told them how to spell "hard shoulder" yet?

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