Road projects brought forward

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delinquentwoody
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Road projects brought forward

Post by delinquentwoody » Tue Jun 30, 2020 06:45

According to the BBC the PM is later today going to announce 29 road network projects are being brought forward, "including bridge repairs in Sandwell and improving the A15 in the Humber region". Is there any info on what they might be doing to the A15? It can't be getting duelled as the total budget for 29 projects is only £100m.

BBC News - Coronavirus: PM pledges to 'build back better' post-virus
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53226906

alans
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Re: Road projects brought forward

Post by alans » Tue Jun 30, 2020 09:49

The figure I saw for A15 dualling A46 Riseholme to M180 was £500m so I don't see much getting done for the BBC figures quoted,maybe a few junction improvements,or it could be for preparation and design costs for future dualling of the A15.It mentions A15 in the Humber region so presumably this would be the stretch being looked at rather than the A15 around the Sleaford area which also has been put forward for improvements.
Also interesting to read that the £27bn RIS2 budget does not appear to have been affected (reduced) so major schemes should hopefully not be hit

KeithW
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Re: Road projects brought forward

Post by KeithW » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:25

alans wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 09:49
The figure I saw for A15 dualling A46 Riseholme to M180 was £500m so I don't see much getting done for the BBC figures quoted,maybe a few junction improvements,or it could be for preparation and design costs for future dualling of the A15.It mentions A15 in the Humber region so presumably this would be the stretch being looked at rather than the A15 around the Sleaford area which also has been put forward for improvements.
Also interesting to read that the £27bn RIS2 budget does not appear to have been affected (reduced) so major schemes should hopefully not be hit
If anything the PM said they would be accelerated.

jervi
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Re: Road projects brought forward

Post by jervi » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:51

alans wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 09:49
The figure I saw for A15 dualling A46 Riseholme to M180 was £500m so I don't see much getting done for the BBC figures quoted,maybe a few junction improvements,or it could be for preparation and design costs for future dualling of the A15.It mentions A15 in the Humber region so presumably this would be the stretch being looked at rather than the A15 around the Sleaford area which also has been put forward for improvements.
Also interesting to read that the £27bn RIS2 budget does not appear to have been affected (reduced) so major schemes should hopefully not be hit
The A15 south of Lincoln hasn't really got any issues that requires government funding to fix. Holdingham Roundabout is now due for being rebuilt & signalized early next year (delayed 6 months), but that's about all. Some of the junctions on it could do with lights or roundabouts, but nothing major. But the A15 between the M180 & Lincoln could do with some help with around 15,000 AADT, especially large proportion being HVGs.
Maybe with RAF Scampton being closed (very very soon), the A15 will return to its original route and become the straightest road in the UK, but even longer.

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roadtester
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Re: Road projects brought forward

Post by roadtester » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:01

I can ony assume this is based on the political need to be seen to be doing something for a neglected Brexity region to keep its support.
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WHBM
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Re: Road projects brought forward

Post by WHBM » Tue Jun 30, 2020 13:27

Interesting to consider what impact on the UK economy and employment different elements bring.

Civils have always been well regarded in this respect, they use quite a proportion of local labour and certainly of the bulk materials, it being somewhat impractical to import fill or concrete. I presume continental main contractors, even as part of a JV, won't get much of a look-in.

Traffic signals are I understand import nowadays, from Germany and elsewhere, not that much of an economy contribution.

I do hope for some control over the major consulting organisations, that they don't take the funding to re-re-re-re-design it all, ending up with nothing to show on the ground.

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Re: Road projects brought forward

Post by KeithW » Tue Jun 30, 2020 14:04

roadtester wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:01
I can ony assume this is based on the political need to be seen to be doing something for a neglected Brexity region to keep its support.
That and the fact that the south bank of the Humber in Lincolshire is growing and not well served by road or rail. The only decent roads are the M180/A180 and the A15 between the Humber Bridge and the M180. Links to Immingham are not great considering its importance.

tom1977
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Re: Road projects brought forward

Post by tom1977 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 16:22

This isn't new funding. It is the old political trick of re-announcing something that was previously already committed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/53236921

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Re: Road projects brought forward

Post by Scratchwood » Tue Jun 30, 2020 16:36

WHBM wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 13:27
Interesting to consider what impact on the UK economy and employment different elements bring.

Civils have always been well regarded in this respect, they use quite a proportion of local labour and certainly of the bulk materials, it being somewhat impractical to import fill or concrete. I presume continental main contractors, even as part of a JV, won't get much of a look-in.

Traffic signals are I understand import nowadays, from Germany and elsewhere, not that much of an economy contribution.

I do hope for some control over the major consulting organisations, that they don't take the funding to re-re-re-re-design it all, ending up with nothing to show on the ground.
A massive job creation programme to install speed humps , remove speed humps, paint cycle lanes, remove cycle lanes etc :D

alans
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Re: Road projects brought forward

Post by alans » Tue Jun 30, 2020 18:28

Regarding the A15 investment,it is £4.5m according to Highways Magazine,so not much dualling for that, they mention ''boosting the quality of the road'' whatever that means

From Highways Magazine website

Projects include:

£4.9m to repair two bridges in Sandwell to improve safety for nearby key roads in the West Midlands that will be used heavily during the 2022 Commonwealth Games
£5m each for plans to make the key route network in Liverpool more resilient, to begin further maintenance on the Swanswell Viaduct in Coventry, and for road maintenance on the Tadcaster Road in York
£4.9m to replace poor-quality footways for pedestrians in Sheffield, as part of the Government’s commitment to improve people’s access to ‘active travel’
boosting the quality of the A15, a key route providing a vital connection through the Humber region, with over £4.5m of investment

NICK 647063
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Re: Road projects brought forward

Post by NICK 647063 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 18:52

How can this be described as major investment when most of it seems to be road maintenance? Surely that should be done regardless without having to take money out of this fund, needs to be fair more investment.

WHBM
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Re: Road projects brought forward

Post by WHBM » Tue Jun 30, 2020 19:10

NICK 647063 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 18:52
How can this be described as major investment when most of it seems to be road maintenance? Surely that should be done regardless without having to take money out of this fund, needs to be fair more investment.
I can accept that maintenance work is commonly more "shovel-ready" than new construction, where there can be longwinded delays with planning, Nimbys, anti-government local authorities etc.

However you are quite right, it is incorrect to describe maintenance work as "investment", a poor trend which has spread across many transport projects. Investment is creating a New Asset. Separately, Repairs & Renewals, and Routine Maintenance, are NOT investment at all. It is not as if the government doesn't know the difference, because in tax returns etc by businesses they are quite specifically split out, you get better tax breaks for investment. For projects which are a mixture of both (as many are) there are standard accounting formulae to handle the division.

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Re: Road projects brought forward

Post by c2R » Tue Jun 30, 2020 19:15

The A15 from Lincoln to the M180 should be dualled on both safety as well as growth grounds. It's pretty dreadful, despite looking from the map like a reasonable route if travelling from Newark to Hull - Google even recommends it, but you just wouldn't!...
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alans
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Re: Road projects brought forward

Post by alans » Tue Jun 30, 2020 20:43

[quote=c2R post_id=1130208 time=1593540909 user_id=60]
The A15 from Lincoln to the M180 should be dualled on both safety as well as growth grounds. It's pretty dreadful, despite looking from the map like a reasonable route if travelling from Newark to Hull - Google even recommends it, but you just wouldn't!...
[/quote]

Absolutely,it is pretty horrendous,lots of LGV's,mixed with slow moving agricultural vehicles and impatient car and van drivers itching to overtake,not mention some very undulating straight stretches with multiple field accesses and minor road junctions does'nt make for a pleasant drive.I feel fortunate that I can take the A46 to Lincoln which BTW could also do with some investment if Boris is looking for something to spend a few million on!

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Re: Road projects brought forward

Post by KeithW » Wed Jul 01, 2020 09:37

alans wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 20:43
c2R wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 19:15
The A15 from Lincoln to the M180 should be dualled on both safety as well as growth grounds. It's pretty dreadful, despite looking from the map like a reasonable route if travelling from Newark to Hull - Google even recommends it, but you just wouldn't!...
Absolutely,it is pretty horrendous,lots of LGV's,mixed with slow moving agricultural vehicles and impatient car and van drivers itching to overtake,not mention some very undulating straight stretches with multiple field accesses and minor road junctions does'nt make for a pleasant drive.I feel fortunate that I can take the A46 to Lincoln which BTW could also do with some investment if Boris is looking for something to spend a few million on!
If Lincolnshire CC wants money to upgrade the A15 now is the time to make an approach and try and get some from the Government Major Roads Scheme, I know the Tees Valley Combined Authority is currently pitching 2 schemes and preparing another .

It seems that LCC do in fact have a scheme to improve the A46
https://www.lincolnshire.gov.uk/major-projects/lincolnshire-coastal-highway wrote: The Lincolnshire Coastal Highway is the route comprising of the A46 west of Lincoln and along the A158 to Skegness. It also includes the A57 from the county boundary to where it joins the A46 in Lincoln.
Now is the time for them to push it
https://www.lincolnshire.gov.uk/major-p ... al-highway.

They have already produced a first study looking at the route and benefits.
https://www.lincolnshire.gov.uk/downloa ... esentation

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roadtester
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Re: Road projects brought forward

Post by roadtester » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:53

Business interests in East Anglia are calling for improvements to the A14 in Suffolk - a reminder that the route, while drastically improved over the years, could still do with a bit more work.

https://www.eadt.co.uk/news/a14-improve ... -1-6723542
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alans
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Re: Road projects brought forward

Post by alans » Wed Jul 01, 2020 15:31

''It seems that LCC do in fact have a scheme to improve the A46
https://www.lincolnshire.gov.uk/major-p ... al-highway wrote:
The Lincolnshire Coastal Highway is the route comprising of the A46 west of Lincoln and along the A158 to Skegness. It also includes the A57 from the county boundary to where it joins the A46 in Lincoln.
Now is the time for them to push it
https://www.lincolnshire.gov.uk/major-p ... al-highway.

They have already produced a first study looking at the route and benefits.
https://www.lincolnshire.gov.uk/downloa ... esentation''


Those LCC websites seem to mainly concerned about the route to the coast from Lincoln (A158) there is little or no mention of the much needed upgrade of the A15 north of Lincoln or the A46 Lincoln to Grimsby section,also requiring some investment,they also mention the A46 west of Lincoln but this has received major upgrades over the years,so don't know what they're asking for with that section,maybe removal of the roundabout near RAF Swinderby and the upgrading of the Lincoln bypass to full duall with no roundabouts.

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Re: Road projects brought forward

Post by Micro The Maniac » Wed Jul 01, 2020 16:43

WHBM wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 19:10
I can accept that maintenance work is commonly more "shovel-ready" than new construction, where there can be longwinded delays with planning, Nimbys, anti-government local authorities etc.

However you are quite right, it is incorrect to describe maintenance work as "investment", a poor trend which has spread across many transport projects. Investment is creating a New Asset. Separately, Repairs & Renewals, and Routine Maintenance, are NOT investment at all. It is not as if the government doesn't know the difference, because in tax returns etc by businesses they are quite specifically split out, you get better tax breaks for investment. For projects which are a mixture of both (as many are) there are standard accounting formulae to handle the division.
I agree... a philosophical difference, maybe but (out in the big wide world) there is a clear distinction between "investment" and "repair and maintenance" - and (for Joe Public) the tax treatment are significantly different, and woe betide you if you allocate your spending to the wrong category.

A colleague of mine has (just pre-lockdown) been given the 3rd degree by HMRC over his "expenses" for his parents former house - both died in quick succession, so the house was rented out. "Repair and maintenance" is deductible, "investment" is not.

Some examples (according to HMRC):
  • Resurfacing an existing driveway is "maintenance"... widening the driveway is "capital expenditure" (and thus "investment") for the new bit.
  • Replacing existing curtains with new is "maintenance"... replacing curtains with blinds is "capital expenditure" (and thus "investment").
  • Stripping wallpaper and putting new wallpaper up is "maintenance"... putting wallpaper where there wasn't any is "capital expenditure" (and thus "investment").
This is especially relevant on a rental property, where there is no capital allowance :(

So...
Resurfacing an existing road is "maintenance"... widening an existing road, or rerouting it, is "capital expenditure"
This post is definitive
... reality is frequently inaccurate!

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Piatkow
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Re: Road projects brought forward

Post by Piatkow » Wed Jul 01, 2020 16:59

That sort of money sounds like a couple of feasability studies.

WHBM
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Re: Road projects brought forward

Post by WHBM » Wed Jul 01, 2020 18:32

Piatkow wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 16:59
That sort of money sounds like a couple of feasability studies.
We absolutely must not let the usual suspect consultancies squander the whole amount on feasibility studies covering the same ground as the last feasibility study, and whose only conclusion is that they need to do a further feasibility study ...

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