Upgrading the A66 and A69

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KeithW
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by KeithW » Mon Nov 16, 2020 16:00

SouthWest Philip wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 15:20
Rob590 wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 14:55
The shopping area isn't going to be part of Scotch Corner-proper: it will be accesssed from the A6108/A6055 junction just to the south of J53.
I'm going to hazard a guess that this shopping development is going to be built over the obvious line for a direct connection between the A66 and A1(M)(S)?
Unless they rebuild the whole junction as a free flow GSJ there or put the southbound slip on a monstrous flyover there is no obvious line for a direct connection. But had the shopping centre been built at the original location just off Middleton Tyas Lane to the east it would would prevented any rebuild from happening, You can see the original location here.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.44223 ... a=!3m1!1e3

The whole thing looks like it was just randomly dropped on the ground rather than planned.

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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by Big Nick » Mon Nov 16, 2020 18:31

SouthWest Philip wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 15:20
Rob590 wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 14:55
The shopping area isn't going to be part of Scotch Corner-proper: it will be accesssed from the A6108/A6055 junction just to the south of J53.
I'm going to hazard a guess that this shopping development is going to be built over the obvious line for a direct connection between the A66 and A1(M)(S)?
Going by the image in this report it shouldn't be a problem, apart from all the added traffic that will want to stop there.
http://www.richmondshiretoday.co.uk/sco ... evelopers/

The plan can be seen here - http://www.slroutlets.co.uk/projects/sc ... r-village/

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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by KeithW » Mon Nov 16, 2020 19:29

Big Nick wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 18:31

Going by the image in this report it shouldn't be a problem, apart from all the added traffic that will want to stop there.
http://www.richmondshiretoday.co.uk/sco ... evelopers/

The plan can be seen here - http://www.slroutlets.co.uk/projects/sc ... r-village/
That is the problem, we should not be allowing retail centres to be built at the junction of two strategic roads especially when one is being upgraded which will load more traffic onto it in any case. All the traffic for the retail centre will be added to the Scotch Corner roundabout which can see long queues as it is.

What next a new shopping centre next to Simster Island perhaps ?

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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by M19 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 21:42

Looks like a classic repeat of Rushden Lakes on the A45.

Whoever does the traffic modelling for getting these schemes through seriously need to question their professional ethics, because we all know what will happen from day one of opening.
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by CallumParry » Tue Nov 17, 2020 00:22

M19 wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 21:42
Looks like a classic repeat of Rushden Lakes on the A45.

Whoever does the traffic modelling for getting these schemes through seriously need to question their professional ethics, because we all know what will happen from day one of opening.
In my opinion Scotch Corner needs to be all free flow A66 East to A1(M) north and South and then a fast link A1(M) north to A66 West

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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by KeithW » Tue Nov 17, 2020 09:30

CallumParry wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 00:22
M19 wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 21:42
Looks like a classic repeat of Rushden Lakes on the A45.

Whoever does the traffic modelling for getting these schemes through seriously need to question their professional ethics, because we all know what will happen from day one of opening.
In my opinion Scotch Corner needs to be all free flow A66 East to A1(M) north and South and then a fast link A1(M) north to A66 West
Agreed but its not going to happen in the near future. The line you need to follow for the northbound link is being used as the A6055 while southbound there is a LAR that serves a number of farms and leads to Scuragh House Lane to Moulton.

This is what happens when you have separate schemes with no consideration for future growth. It wasnt done as part of the Barton to Dishforth scheme which would have been the perfect time to GSJ the junction because there was no active scheme to upgrade the A66. Everybody knew it would happen eventually of course. At that time it would have been already more difficult and expensive due to the decision to allow the Scotch Corner rest area to be expanded in the 1990's. Once this happened the A6055 LAR was forced to switch to a route west of the A1(M), thus blocking the very slip roads you would like. Indeed the owners (Moto) hesitated to expand it for several years fearful that it would be required for a future junction upgrade.

Compare and contrast with the A(M) Darlington Bypass where elongated slip road designated A66(M) were constructed from the A1(M) to the Blackwell Roundabout outside Darlington. This seemed like a white elephant for many years - until the A66 Darlington Southern bypasss was built.
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by roadtester » Sun Nov 22, 2020 01:50

Just catching up with the detail of this now.

It looks really impressive, well towards the upper end of expectations in terms of raising the route to a high quality throughout.

One thing that occurs to me - anyone who is local will know the situation far better than I do but to the best of my recollection there are already very few places to stop for a break/refuelling/leg-stretching/other bio needs, something that will be even more obvious as the route is increasingly tidied up and and off-lined, as well as presumably taking ever increasing volumes of traffic.

Quite how that need might be catered for, I'm not sure - it's about fifty miles between the A1(M) and the M6, far more than the normal interval between MSAs, if we can take that as some sort of benchmark.

Of course there's always the option of breaking up the journey by making a brief detour to Barnard Castle for a bit of sightseeing and an eye test along the way.
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by roadtester » Sun Nov 22, 2020 02:48

M19 wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 21:42
Looks like a classic repeat of Rushden Lakes on the A45.
I agree that's a terrible case - my heart sinks at the short-sightedness involved every time I go that way.
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by KeithW » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:35

roadtester wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 01:50

One thing that occurs to me - anyone who is local will know the situation far better than I do but to the best of my recollection there are already very few places to stop for a break/refuelling/leg-stretching/other bio needs, something that will be even more obvious as the route is increasingly tidied up and and off-lined, as well as presumably taking ever increasing volumes of traffic.

Quite how that need might be catered for, I'm not sure - it's about fifty miles between the A1(M) and the M6, far more than the normal interval between MSAs, if we can take that as some sort of benchmark.

Of course there's always the option of breaking up the journey by making a brief detour to Barnard Castle for a bit of sightseeing and an eye test along the way.
Well heading east to west we have

The Mainsgill Farm Shop and cafe - will be off the new route and so easier to access but probably wont be visible from the new road
Fox Hall Inn just past Mainsgill

Cross Lanes farm shop and cafe on existing D2 section - dodgy junction but lots of parking and an electric car charging point

The Bowes Moor hotel closed unfortunately and is now a private residence.

There's the Stainmore Cafe complete with dodgy flat junction.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52375 ... 312!8i6656

Cafe 66 - eastbound only

Brough is a good place for break its just off the A66, there are public toilets, a decent chippy, a couple of pubs and a convenience store clustered around the junction of the B6276 and Main Street.

There is more in Appleby, but parking in the centre can be a problem but you can usually find a place in the car park at Broad Close.

Kirkby Thore has a garage, Inn and Cafe but will get a northern bypass so these will be some distance from the new road and may end up being closed.

Last but not least is the Llama Karma Kafe just outside Penrith.
https://www.llamakarmakafe.co.uk/

I think that at least some of these should be indicated from the new route with a Local Services sign but these have increasingly disappeared in recent years. It would have been even better if HE had included a proper rest area rather than just the odd layby.

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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by roadtester » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:50

Thanks - I suppose the logical requirement would be for one or perhaps two MSA-style but probably smaller sites to cater for this but that would presumably be difficult to pull off in such an unspoilt area. On the other hand dualling and off-lining is already quite intrusive in and of itself.
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by Ruperts Trooper » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:09

If the dualling is off-line, aren't there opportunities for rest areas on the old alignment?
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by roadtester » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:31

Ruperts Trooper wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:09
If the dualling is off-line, aren't there opportunities for rest areas on the old alignment?
Ah yes - good solution.
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by KeithW » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:58

Ruperts Trooper wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:09
If the dualling is off-line, aren't there opportunities for rest areas on the old alignment?
Well parts are online and there is space along sections that have already been dualled and this is as about as open a piece of road as anywhere in England albeit with some of the worst weather.

On Stainmore Moor where the Stainmore Cafe is there is Oodles of room and being open moorland is unlikely to be very expensive.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52323 ... 312!8i6656

Bowes Moor is pretty wide open to say the least.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.50750 ... 312!8i6656

Along the new Kirkby Thore Northern Bypass there is space between the village and the Gypsum Quarry.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Kir ... d-2.560433

Ideally somebody like Applegreen will put in a small service area. I doubt it would need a motel, a simple filling station, convenience store, truck parking area and cafe is all that is really needed. The sort of things you see at places like Markham Moor or Gonerby on the A1

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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by KeithW » Sun Nov 22, 2020 13:36

roadtester wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:31
Ruperts Trooper wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:09
If the dualling is off-line, aren't there opportunities for rest areas on the old alignment?
Ah yes - good solution.
Well the problem with that is many parts of the old alignment such as at Kirkby Thore, Warcop and Crackenthorpe are being dualled offline as the drive is to remove traffic. In fact one selling point of the route at Crackenthorpe is that it will open the road for use by cyclists and walkers. That said at the transition between the end of the Appleby bypass and the new road there should be an opportunity. If you look at the map the 'new' route will follow the Roman Road and there is plenty of space there. In fact I would be surprised if when they dig they find the remains of a Roman Vicus as happened during the Leeming Barton upgrade.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Bow ... 667!4d-2.1

In fact the archaeologists are already sharpening their trowels :)
https://www.eden-heritage.co.uk/archaeo ... ne-project

Personally I would also be looking at some sections such as over Bowes and Stainmore Moor which are already dualled and have small services area off one side. Put in another on the southern side with a couple of LILO's and an its pretty straight forward and gets rid of a flat junction. Of course its rather bleak but there are always plenty of trucks there.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52239 ... 312!8i6656

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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by jackal » Sun Nov 22, 2020 15:43

Freeflow at Scotch Corner is fairly simple even with the shopping development, e.g.:

A1(M) A66 - Copy.jpg

If the A66 at Darlo were improved you could add north-facing freeflow to the above.

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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by KeithW » Sun Nov 22, 2020 16:42

jackal wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 15:43
Freeflow at Scotch Corner is fairly simple even with the shopping development, e.g.:


A1(M) A66 - Copy.jpg


If the A66 at Darlo were improved you could add north-facing freeflow to the above.
Apart from the minor fact that your slips dont lead onto the A66 but into a farm yard.
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by jackal » Sun Nov 22, 2020 17:23

No they don't. At least try to use some common sense.

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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by Rob590 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 21:22

KeithW wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:58
Ruperts Trooper wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:09
If the dualling is off-line, aren't there opportunities for rest areas on the old alignment?
Well parts are online and there is space along sections that have already been dualled and this is as about as open a piece of road as anywhere in England albeit with some of the worst weather.

On Stainmore Moor where the Stainmore Cafe is there is Oodles of room and being open moorland is unlikely to be very expensive.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52323 ... 312!8i6656

Bowes Moor is pretty wide open to say the least.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.50750 ... 312!8i6656

Along the new Kirkby Thore Northern Bypass there is space between the village and the Gypsum Quarry.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Kir ... d-2.560433

Ideally somebody like Applegreen will put in a small service area. I doubt it would need a motel, a simple filling station, convenience store, truck parking area and cafe is all that is really needed. The sort of things you see at places like Markham Moor or Gonerby on the A1
!!!! I think constructions on the moors are non-starters. You're bordering an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, which is visible from a National Park. You'd have to spend so much on mitigations to the environmental and visible impact. There's also the question of the sense of putting a site in somewhere which is impassable due to snow several times a year - you'd get workers stuck up there.

The A67/A66 junction would be a more possible site I'd have thought. There's likely to be brownfield land left-over from the redevelopment, it's not visilbe from far away, and Bowes doesn't have existing businesses in it in the way that Brough at the other end does.

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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by ForestChav » Sun Nov 22, 2020 22:07

Rob590 wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 21:22
KeithW wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:58
Ruperts Trooper wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:09
If the dualling is off-line, aren't there opportunities for rest areas on the old alignment?
Well parts are online and there is space along sections that have already been dualled and this is as about as open a piece of road as anywhere in England albeit with some of the worst weather.

On Stainmore Moor where the Stainmore Cafe is there is Oodles of room and being open moorland is unlikely to be very expensive.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52323 ... 312!8i6656

Bowes Moor is pretty wide open to say the least.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.50750 ... 312!8i6656

Along the new Kirkby Thore Northern Bypass there is space between the village and the Gypsum Quarry.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Kir ... d-2.560433

Ideally somebody like Applegreen will put in a small service area. I doubt it would need a motel, a simple filling station, convenience store, truck parking area and cafe is all that is really needed. The sort of things you see at places like Markham Moor or Gonerby on the A1
!!!! I think constructions on the moors are non-starters. You're bordering an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, which is visible from a National Park. You'd have to spend so much on mitigations to the environmental and visible impact. There's also the question of the sense of putting a site in somewhere which is impassable due to snow several times a year - you'd get workers stuck up there.

The A67/A66 junction would be a more possible site I'd have thought. There's likely to be brownfield land left-over from the redevelopment, it's not visilbe from far away, and Bowes doesn't have existing businesses in it in the way that Brough at the other end does.
I dunno, if you could somehow make it look conspicuous as much as possible like the Gloucester services...
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by KeithW » Sun Nov 22, 2020 22:13

Rob590 wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 21:22
KeithW wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:58


Well parts are online and there is space along sections that have already been dualled and this is as about as open a piece of road as anywhere in England albeit with some of the worst weather.

On Stainmore Moor where the Stainmore Cafe is there is Oodles of room and being open moorland is unlikely to be very expensive.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52323 ... 312!8i6656

Bowes Moor is pretty wide open to say the least.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.50750 ... 312!8i6656

Along the new Kirkby Thore Northern Bypass there is space between the village and the Gypsum Quarry.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Kir ... d-2.560433

Ideally somebody like Applegreen will put in a small service area. I doubt it would need a motel, a simple filling station, convenience store, truck parking area and cafe is all that is really needed. The sort of things you see at places like Markham Moor or Gonerby on the A1
!!!! I think constructions on the moors are non-starters. You're bordering an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, which is visible from a National Park. You'd have to spend so much on mitigations to the environmental and visible impact. There's also the question of the sense of putting a site in somewhere which is impassable due to snow several times a year - you'd get workers stuck up there.

The A67/A66 junction would be a more possible site I'd have thought. There's likely to be brownfield land left-over from the redevelopment, it's not visilbe from far away, and Bowes doesn't have existing businesses in it in the way that Brough at the other end does.
The moors are not an AONB in fact the A66 skirts the southern edge. They are more accurately described as bleak than beautiful. Brough on the other hand is rather attractive but does not have a large amount of space to spare.

The nearest National Park is the Yorkshire Dales and that is some distance to the south along the A697 to Kirkby Stephen.

Bowes is a rather unsuitable location, for one thing its very close to the eastern end of the A66 (15 miles) and for another its prime agricultural land rather than moorland suitable only for grazing sheep. The new junction is unlikely to leave much brownfield land, its rather simplistic at present. Somewhere between Stainmore and Brough would be ideal. As for snow, where would you rather be stuck - in a service area or at the side of the road ? In any event closures are rare and usually brief, There is a good reason why the old Bowes Moor Hotel and Stainmore Cafe were built where they are.

Bowes itself is pretty enough but was bypassed years ago. Another factor is that you need a workforce for a service area and being near a town is rather helpful in that regard which is why I mentioned Appleby , Kirkby Thore and Brough. Warcop is an army camp cut in half by the A66 so it is out. Armoured vehicles and the barracks are to the south of the A66 with the firing ranges to the north.

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