Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

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wrinkly
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Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by wrinkly » Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:19

Ready though it is, at one time they were proposing to turn it upside down.

marconaf
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Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by marconaf » Wed Feb 10, 2021 18:24

wrinkly wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:19
Ready though it is, at one time they were proposing to turn it upside down.
Really? The Amesbury road would need a steep climb to get up to a junction over the top of the 303 (not sure about the minor road to N), which would then have a bigger dip as iirc both directions come down to the roundabout.

I suppose by putting the 303 in a cutting it might be quieter than a flyover of the roundabout and depends how soon and how deep the tunnel portal could be.

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Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by JammyDodge » Wed Feb 10, 2021 18:37

marconaf wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 18:24
wrinkly wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:19
Ready though it is, at one time they were proposing to turn it upside down.
Really? The Amesbury road would need a steep climb to get up to a junction over the top of the 303 (not sure about the minor road to N), which would then have a bigger dip as iirc both directions come down to the roundabout.

I suppose by putting the 303 in a cutting it might be quieter than a flyover of the roundabout and depends how soon and how deep the tunnel portal could be.
The A303 at Countess Roundabout is as low as it can go without being below the River Avon (yes, I know it could be done).
The A345 to the south would be easy enough to raise, as it already dips down to meet the A303. North of the junction is another problem
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wrinkly
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Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by wrinkly » Wed Feb 10, 2021 19:30

Inverting the future proofing at Countess was part of some version of the official proposal prior to the Feb 2018 version. I'm sure it was discussed in whatever thread we were using to discuss Stonehenge at the time. On 8 Feb 2018, following the publication of a new set of proposals, I wrote on page 8 of this present thread
wrinkly wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 01:11
For water table reasons they're reverting to the obvious layout at Countess junction, Amesbury - flying the A303 over the A345 rather than turning it upside down as proposed at a previous stage.

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Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by mikehindsonevans » Thu Feb 11, 2021 22:05

Putting the junction into a cutting? Hmm, that has REALLY worked out well for the swimming pond on the A555 at Wilmslow - NOT!
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ajuk
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Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by ajuk » Thu Feb 11, 2021 23:13

Why build a tunnel, why not just do this? https://imgur.com/a/rz14hzU *swigs beer*.

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JammyDodge
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Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by JammyDodge » Thu Feb 11, 2021 23:28

ajuk wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 23:13
Why build a tunnel, why not just do this? https://imgur.com/a/rz14hzU *swigs beer*.
*goes through the WHS*
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Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by GeekyJames » Wed Feb 17, 2021 22:08

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-w ... e-56096991 Is this likely to have any impact on the plans?

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Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by fras » Wed Feb 17, 2021 22:21

I doubt this JR will have any impact as it is being taken forward by the usual professional protesters. When one thinks of the decades of study etc, one can't say the decision to proceed was "steamrollered" through.

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Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by JammyDodge » Wed Feb 17, 2021 22:29

fras wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 22:21
I doubt this JR will have any impact as it is being taken forward by the usual professional protesters. When one thinks of the decades of study etc, one can't say the decision to proceed was "steamrollered" through.
And the fact that it has the support of the DfT, Wiltshire Council, The National Trust, English Heritage as well as people in the surrounding areas
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Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by A320Driver » Thu Feb 18, 2021 22:31

A last roll of the dice by the usual tree-hugging fruitcakes, no doubt financed via legal aid paid for by the taxpayer.

The delicious irony being that they want us all to live like we did when the Stones were placed.
Formerly ‘guvvaA303’

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Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by fras » Thu Feb 18, 2021 23:31

A320Driver wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 22:31
A last roll of the dice by the usual tree-hugging fruitcakes, no doubt financed via legal aid paid for by the taxpayer.

The delicious irony being that they want us all to live like we did when the Stones were placed.
Hmm, I'm not sure I'd use that description, but there do seem to a lot of people who don't want any progress or new things at all. Mind you, when lockdown ends they'll probably all be jetting off In Airbus A320s or Boeing 737s to warm climates for their holidays.

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Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by KeithW » Fri Feb 19, 2021 06:57

GeekyJames wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 22:08
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-w ... e-56096991 Is this likely to have any impact on the plans?

<rant mode on>
Let me just say that I fail to to see how putting the road underground is more harmful than having a a line of traffic crawling past on the surface. The Stonehenge fetishists are to a degree illogical. There are other important neolithic monuments where roads not only run past the stones but through the middle of them, Avebury is one example.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.43002 ... authuser=0

Kilmartin Glen in Argyll is full of ancient Stone Monuments and the site of one of the most important historical centres in Britain being the centre of the Kingdom of Dalriada which was occupied by the ancient Scoti. You can wander freely through the ruins of the capital Dunadd. There is a real sense of history and wonder there that is all the better for NOT being in the middle of a heavily managed area where visitors are charged a lot of money for the privilege of looking at the reconstructed remains. Stonehenge has largely become little more than a major tourist attraction and a magnet for hippies and fake druids rather than a true historical site. I went there in the 1960's as a child with my parents when the coach could practically park next to the stones and there was no fence, that's how I prefer to remember it.

The henge as we see it today is largely a reconstruction that was done in the 1950's and 1960's when archaeologists persuaded the Ministry of Works to bring in cranes and repair and replant stones in concrete foundations. As some of the stones had fallen centuries ago with the only witnesses being a number of startled sheep a lot of the reconstruction is based on little more than conjecture. I dont doubt they did their work diligently and with integrity but lets not pretend that it is been wonderfully preserved through the ages.

Picture of reconstruction in progress
Image

For more see.
https://blog.english-heritage.org.uk/ex ... 1950s-60s/
https://ashtronort.wordpress.com/2014/1 ... t-in-1954/
<rant mode off>

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Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by BF2142 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:16

fras wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 23:31
A320Driver wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 22:31
A last roll of the dice by the usual tree-hugging fruitcakes, no doubt financed via legal aid paid for by the taxpayer.

The delicious irony being that they want us all to live like we did when the Stones were placed.
Hmm, I'm not sure I'd use that description, but there do seem to a lot of people who don't want any progress or new things at all. Mind you, when lockdown ends they'll probably all be jetting off In Airbus A320s or Boeing 737s to warm climates for their holidays.
The NIMBY/BANANA culture in this country is quite disturbing. These objectors would be objecting to Stonehenge if you planned to build it today.

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Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by Bryn666 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:23

KeithW wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 06:57
GeekyJames wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 22:08
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-w ... e-56096991 Is this likely to have any impact on the plans?

<rant mode on>
Let me just say that I fail to to see how putting the road underground is more harmful than having a a line of traffic crawling past on the surface. The Stonehenge fetishists are to a degree illogical. There are other important neolithic monuments where roads not only run past the stones but through the middle of them, Avebury is one example.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.43002 ... authuser=0

Kilmartin Glen in Argyll is full of ancient Stone Monuments and the site of one of the most important historical centres in Britain being the centre of the Kingdom of Dalriada which was occupied by the ancient Scoti. You can wander freely through the ruins of the capital Dunadd. There is a real sense of history and wonder there that is all the better for NOT being in the middle of a heavily managed area where visitors are charged a lot of money for the privilege of looking at the reconstructed remains. Stonehenge has largely become little more than a major tourist attraction and a magnet for hippies and fake druids rather than a true historical site. I went there in the 1960's as a child with my parents when the coach could practically park next to the stones and there was no fence, that's how I prefer to remember it.

The henge as we see it today is largely a reconstruction that was done in the 1950's and 1960's when archaeologists persuaded the Ministry of Works to bring in cranes and repair and replant stones in concrete foundations. As some of the stones had fallen centuries ago with the only witnesses being a number of startled sheep a lot of the reconstruction is based on little more than conjecture. I dont doubt they did their work diligently and with integrity but lets not pretend that it is been wonderfully preserved through the ages.

Picture of reconstruction in progress
Image

For more see.
https://blog.english-heritage.org.uk/ex ... 1950s-60s/
https://ashtronort.wordpress.com/2014/1 ... t-in-1954/
<rant mode off>
I agree, the A303 being underground here is the most logical way to restore 'nature' to the stones. The original trackway that pre-dates the A303 by centuries could be reinstated for people to walk along once it hasn't got a trunk road on it.

Stonehenge has never appealed to me for the reasons you say, it's now a modern tourist trap full of nonsense and faux-hippies thinking they're somehow in tune with a massive boulder. I certainly don't see the attraction in queueing for hours to pay an inflated price to see it.

I have been to Carnac in Brittany and it was the same experience. Campervans full of faux-hippies looking at boulders they know nothing about but thinking they can draw meaning from. And yes, there's a giant road in front of them.
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Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by fras » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:52

The Rollright stones near Chipping Norton is a lot quieter, and also free, I think. I used to ride my motorbike quite frequently along the A34 (now the A3400), in the 70s, and see the signs, but never actually visited them until last year.

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Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by Bryn666 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 13:05

BF2142 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:16
fras wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 23:31
A320Driver wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 22:31
A last roll of the dice by the usual tree-hugging fruitcakes, no doubt financed via legal aid paid for by the taxpayer.

The delicious irony being that they want us all to live like we did when the Stones were placed.
Hmm, I'm not sure I'd use that description, but there do seem to a lot of people who don't want any progress or new things at all. Mind you, when lockdown ends they'll probably all be jetting off In Airbus A320s or Boeing 737s to warm climates for their holidays.
The NIMBY/BANANA culture in this country is quite disturbing. These objectors would be objecting to Stonehenge if you planned to build it today.
In a similar issue Everton's proposed new stadium will require infilling one of Liverpool's docks. The objectors are out in force already saying "heritage ruined!".

The dock is used to store containers and bricks, it adds nothing to the usability of the waterfront right now. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-m ... e-56167487 and https://goo.gl/maps/WHoKYdF7MX5ZX6DA9

Opening the waterfront to recretation whilst also providing a city centre stadium will be a huge benefit to Liverpool, more people could learn about the heritage if they can see it and experience it, but people would rather keep something unfit for use and for the benefit of a few storage companies only because "it's been there for 200 years".
Bryn
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Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by owen b » Tue Feb 23, 2021 20:44

fras wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:52
The Rollright stones near Chipping Norton is a lot quieter, and also free, I think. I used to ride my motorbike quite frequently along the A34 (now the A3400), in the 70s, and see the signs, but never actually visited them until last year.
Likewise Castlerigg stone circle near Keswick, which is in a stunningly atmospheric setting between lakes and mountains.
Owen

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Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by KeithW » Tue Feb 23, 2021 20:55

fras wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:52
The Rollright stones near Chipping Norton is a lot quieter, and also free, I think. I used to ride my motorbike quite frequently along the A34 (now the A3400), in the 70s, and see the signs, but never actually visited them until last year.
Another favourite of mine, they appeared in a classic Dr Who , The Stones of Death.

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Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by BF2142 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:08

Bryn666 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 13:05
BF2142 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:16
fras wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 23:31

Hmm, I'm not sure I'd use that description, but there do seem to a lot of people who don't want any progress or new things at all. Mind you, when lockdown ends they'll probably all be jetting off In Airbus A320s or Boeing 737s to warm climates for their holidays.
The NIMBY/BANANA culture in this country is quite disturbing. These objectors would be objecting to Stonehenge if you planned to build it today.
In a similar issue Everton's proposed new stadium will require infilling one of Liverpool's docks. The objectors are out in force already saying "heritage ruined!".

The dock is used to store containers and bricks, it adds nothing to the usability of the waterfront right now. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-m ... e-56167487 and https://goo.gl/maps/WHoKYdF7MX5ZX6DA9

Opening the waterfront to recretation whilst also providing a city centre stadium will be a huge benefit to Liverpool, more people could learn about the heritage if they can see it and experience it, but people would rather keep something unfit for use and for the benefit of a few storage companies only because "it's been there for 200 years".
This country loves looking backwards. The old building fixation I think is relatively new. It never occurs to these heritage buffs that the old buildings they campaign about were likely built on sites where even older buildings once stood. They would be objecting to Brunel’s railway (save the countryside!) and St Paul’s Cathedral (too tall! Why can’t we restore the old one?).

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