Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

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SBRoxMan
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Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by SBRoxMan » Sun May 09, 2021 03:28

This is something I've been wondering ever since the A14/M6 interchange was vastly improved. But as we all know, an A road cannot just lead onto a motorway without allowing non-motorway traffic to leave first. I know there's now a sign at junction 1 advising non-motorway traffic to leave there, but why hasn't the A14 beyond there been designated as something like the A14(M), or perhaps an extension of the M6?

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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by Steven » Sun May 09, 2021 07:26

The short answer is basically "because Highways England don't understand Special Roads legislation". And unfortunately, I'm actually serious about that - whilst I'm sure that there are individual engineers who understand it, as an organisation, they just don't.

The long answers are contained within this very long thread that lasted for 11 years (!) regarding the various proposals for the M1/M6/A14 junction at Catthorpe.
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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by jgharston » Mon May 10, 2021 13:09

SBRoxMan wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 03:28
but why hasn't the A14 beyond there been designated as something like the A14(M), or perhaps an extension of the M6?
'cos it's really the M11.

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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by the cheesecake man » Mon May 10, 2021 13:19

jgharston wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 13:09
SBRoxMan wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 03:28
but why hasn't the A14 beyond there been designated as something like the A14(M), or perhaps an extension of the M6?
'cos it's really the M11.
Well I watched a programme on BBC4 last night about a site near Peterborough that was described as being by the M11 so perhaps you and the BBC know something the rest of us don't. 8-)

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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by KeithW » Mon May 10, 2021 14:05

The real answer is the A14 was cobbled together using bits of the A45, A604 and new build. The A604 section between Brampton Hut and Thrapston was dualled online and on the cheap leaving a number of horrible flat junctions. To make it into a motor way you would need to provide a suitable LAR and fix junctions such as this one.

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3521391 ... 312!8i6656

The A14 was the road between Royston and Alconbury, the section from the A604 to Alconbury was dualled off line which is why after the A604 was renamed you had the A14 continuing to Alconbury and another section of road called A14 heading west to Brampton Hut

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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by Bomag » Mon May 10, 2021 17:47

Steven wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 07:26
The short answer is basically "because Highways England don't understand Special Roads legislation". And unfortunately, I'm actually serious about that - whilst I'm sure that there are individual engineers who understand it, as an organisation, they just don't.

The long answers are contained within this very long thread that lasted for 11 years (!) regarding the various proposals for the M1/M6/A14 junction at Catthorpe.
In would say it was the other way round HE fully understands special roads, the problem is it employs project managers who have no highway engineering knowledge. I had a chat with a HE MP project sponsor today who had know idea what the TSRGD was. In terms of A14 J1 to M6, a slight issue of legislation wasn't going to get in the way of the bonus.

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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by Sunil_of_Yoxley » Mon May 10, 2021 20:44

jgharston wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 13:09
SBRoxMan wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 03:28
but why hasn't the A14 beyond there been designated as something like the A14(M), or perhaps an extension of the M6?
'cos it's really the M11.
Nah, the M11 is really the London end of the M6 :lol:
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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by Sunil_of_Yoxley » Mon May 10, 2021 20:54

KeithW wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 14:05
The real answer is the A14 was cobbled together using bits of the A45, A604 and new build. The A604 section between Brampton Hut and Thrapston was dualled online and on the cheap leaving a number of horrible flat junctions. To make it into a motor way you would need to provide a suitable LAR and fix junctions such as this one.

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3521391 ... 312!8i6656
And yet there are TWO GSJs between the Thrapston and Ellington interchanges: the Spaldwick junction (J18), and the B660 Junction (J16).

Still, is the Thrapston to Ellington section the new Cumberland Gap? :oops:
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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by Norfolktolancashire » Mon May 10, 2021 22:56

KeithW wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 14:05
The real answer is the A14 was cobbled together using bits of the A45, A604 and new build. The A604 section between Brampton Hut and Thrapston was dualled online and on the cheap leaving a number of horrible flat junctions. To make it into a motor way you would need to provide a suitable LAR and fix junctions such as this one.

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3521391 ... 312!8i6656

I noticed on that Street view image a sign prohibiting horse and carriages on the adjacent green lane. I have never seen that sign anywhere else!

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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by solocle » Tue May 11, 2021 08:27

Norfolktolancashire wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 22:56
KeithW wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 14:05
The real answer is the A14 was cobbled together using bits of the A45, A604 and new build. The A604 section between Brampton Hut and Thrapston was dualled online and on the cheap leaving a number of horrible flat junctions. To make it into a motor way you would need to provide a suitable LAR and fix junctions such as this one.

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3521391 ... 312!8i6656

I noticed on that Street view image a sign prohibiting horse and carriages on the adjacent green lane. I have never seen that sign anywhere else!
That shows up as a byway... The relevant TRO is here - Cambs

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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by c2R » Tue May 11, 2021 14:09

Norfolktolancashire wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 22:56
KeithW wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 14:05
The real answer is the A14 was cobbled together using bits of the A45, A604 and new build. The A604 section between Brampton Hut and Thrapston was dualled online and on the cheap leaving a number of horrible flat junctions. To make it into a motor way you would need to provide a suitable LAR and fix junctions such as this one.

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3521391 ... 312!8i6656

I noticed on that Street view image a sign prohibiting horse and carriages on the adjacent green lane. I have never seen that sign anywhere else!
There's a few of them around, often on BOATs with TROs

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.9085605 ... 312!8i6656
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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by KeithW » Tue May 11, 2021 16:29

Norfolktolancashire wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 22:56
KeithW wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 14:05
The real answer is the A14 was cobbled together using bits of the A45, A604 and new build. The A604 section between Brampton Hut and Thrapston was dualled online and on the cheap leaving a number of horrible flat junctions. To make it into a motor way you would need to provide a suitable LAR and fix junctions such as this one.

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3521391 ... 312!8i6656
I noticed on that Street view image a sign prohibiting horse and carriages on the adjacent green lane. I have never seen that sign anywhere else!
There are a few in Cambridgeshire on restricted byways, the problem is that horse drawn carts may be unsuitable for the green lane either by being too wide and/or because the horses hooves and/or cart wheels simply tear them up. This is why well into the 20th century cobblestone roads were so popular.

Outside of town the classic construction for 19th century main roads was that pioneered by John Macadam, basically an 8 inch laver of stones of less than 3 inches and an upper layer of stones less than 3/4 inch in size. The classic field test was that these stones had to fit in the workmans mouth. This ensured that the steel rim of the wheels used would compact the surface especially if they were bedded in sand.

Early motor vehicles did a lot of damage to these roads until it was found that dressing them with tar made them much more resistant and thus was invented Tarmac.

Hall drive in Acklam was a classic example of a McAdam road that had been dressed with tar, the records of the building (which became Acklam Hall Grammar School) included the bills for doing the work in the 1900s

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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by Norfolktolancashire » Tue May 11, 2021 17:34

KeithW wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 16:29
Norfolktolancashire wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 22:56
KeithW wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 14:05
The real answer is the A14 was cobbled together using bits of the A45, A604 and new build. The A604 section between Brampton Hut and Thrapston was dualled online and on the cheap leaving a number of horrible flat junctions. To make it into a motor way you would need to provide a suitable LAR and fix junctions such as this one.

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3521391 ... 312!8i6656
I noticed on that Street view image a sign prohibiting horse and carriages on the adjacent green lane. I have never seen that sign anywhere else!
There are a few in Cambridgeshire on restricted byways, the problem is that horse drawn carts may be unsuitable for the green lane either by being too wide and/or because the horses hooves and/or cart wheels simply tear them up. This is why well into the 20th century cobblestone roads were so popular.

Outside of town the classic construction for 19th century main roads was that pioneered by John Macadam, basically an 8 inch laver of stones of less than 3 inches and an upper layer of stones less than 3/4 inch in size. The classic field test was that these stones had to fit in the workmans mouth. This ensured that the steel rim of the wheels used would compact the surface especially if they were bedded in sand.

Early motor vehicles did a lot of damage to these roads until it was found that dressing them with tar made them much more resistant and thus was invented Tarmac.

Hall drive in Acklam was a classic example of a McAdam road that had been dressed with tar, the records of the building (which became Acklam Hall Grammar School) included the bills for doing the work in the 1900s
Interesting.

After seeing the state of some of the green lanes around here that have been mashed up by trial bikes, it gives some idea of how poor roads were all those years ago.

And before anyone states the obvious regarding trial bikes before 1900!

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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by Norfolktolancashire » Tue May 11, 2021 17:38

solocle wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 08:27
Norfolktolancashire wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 22:56
KeithW wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 14:05
The real answer is the A14 was cobbled together using bits of the A45, A604 and new build. The A604 section between Brampton Hut and Thrapston was dualled online and on the cheap leaving a number of horrible flat junctions. To make it into a motor way you would need to provide a suitable LAR and fix junctions such as this one.

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3521391 ... 312!8i6656

I noticed on that Street view image a sign prohibiting horse and carriages on the adjacent green lane. I have never seen that sign anywhere else!
That shows up as a byway... The relevant TRO is here - Cambs
Thanks, from what I read it has the traffic banned due to the danger of crossing or entering this junction, which makes sense.

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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by KeithW » Tue May 11, 2021 17:55

Norfolktolancashire wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 17:38
solocle wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 08:27

That shows up as a byway... The relevant TRO is here - Cambs
Thanks, from what I read it has the traffic banned due to the danger of crossing or entering this junction, which makes sense.
The Street view image of course shows the gates as wide open and rather decrepit and at the earliest would have dated back to 2008.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.35189 ... 6656?hl=en

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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by lotrjw » Thu May 13, 2021 22:59

KeithW wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 14:05
The real answer is the A14 was cobbled together using bits of the A45, A604 and new build. The A604 section between Brampton Hut and Thrapston was dualled online and on the cheap leaving a number of horrible flat junctions. To make it into a motor way you would need to provide a suitable LAR and fix junctions such as this one.

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3521391 ... 312!8i6656

The A14 was the road between Royston and Alconbury, the section from the A604 to Alconbury was dualled off line which is why after the A604 was renamed you had the A14 continuing to Alconbury and another section of road called A14 heading west to Brampton Hut
Not the section in question it was brand new when the A14 was as you say cobbled together. So no need for an LAR, besides there are plenty of routes round that section, that could act as an LAR.

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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by KeithW » Fri May 14, 2021 10:36

lotrjw wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 22:59
Not the section in question it was brand new when the A14 was as you say cobbled together. So no need for an LAR, besides there are plenty of routes round that section, that could act as an LAR.
There are however problems with doing that now.

The first is that having been in place well over 20 years extinguishing existing rights of way would almost certainly raise legal challenges.

The second is that the new section was not built to comply with motorway regulations so even west of Kettering there are still businesses that can only be accessed from the road such as here at Rothwell.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.41452 ... 6656?hl=en

Then there are the all purpose roads that code share along the A14 such as the A6 between junctions 3 and 10 and the A43 between J7 and J8

All of these problems could be overcome of course - at a price. I don't see any great appetite to spend the sort of sums needed or any commensurate gain.

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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by Chris5156 » Fri May 14, 2021 12:48

KeithW wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:36
The second is that the new section was not built to comply with motorway regulations so even west of Kettering there are still businesses that can only be accessed from the road such as here at Rothwell.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.41452 ... 6656?hl=en

Then there are the all purpose roads that code share along the A14 such as the A6 between junctions 3 and 10 and the A43 between J7 and J8
In fairness the OP was asking only about the A14 between the M6 and junction 1, as mentioned in the thread title. East of J1 those things are true, but on the section in question, there are no property accesses and no multiplexes with other routes.

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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by c2R » Fri May 14, 2021 12:58

Indeed, and you'd hope that any legal challenge to extinguishing the right of way would probably be fairly easy to squash along the grounds of it being vexatious.
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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by KeithW » Fri May 14, 2021 14:20

c2R wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 12:58
Indeed, and you'd hope that any legal challenge to extinguishing the right of way would probably be fairly easy to squash along the grounds of it being vexatious.
The short answer to that is that the appropriate statutory instrument to make it a special road has not been obtained.

The long answer is that its down to the design of the remodelled Catthorpe Interchange. As a result of that the all purpose A14 flows onto the M6/M1 with no escape past J1. This is why the signs at J1 instruct non motorway traffic to leave but without the statutory instrument enforcing that in the courts would be interesting to say the least. I suspect any legal challenge would be hard to describe as vexatious given that until the remodelling of Catthorpe there was a route from the end of the A14 onto Rugby Road.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.39705 ... 6656?hl=en

The follow up is why was the section not made a special road and that comes back to weighing the cost against the benefit of making just 6 miles of the A14 a motorway. Ideally the A14 upgrade project would have had the scope widened to make the A14 between Cambridge and the M6 a motorway and that brings us back to the cost of upgrading all the A14 west of Girton to motorway standard.

Interestingly there is a section of the A1 in Scotland which is a special road with the same restrictions as a motorway an yet it remains just the A1 albeit with a plethora of signs banning everything except Class I and Class II traffic. There is also the A720 of course.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.92798 ... 8192?hl=en

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