Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

User avatar
RJDG14
Member
Posts: 3691
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 15:47
Location: Swindon
Contact:

Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by RJDG14 » Mon May 17, 2021 18:25

I've read that last year, the A466 between the centre of Chepstow and the M48 had its speed limit reduced to 50 alongside being redesignated as a red route clearway. To me, its redesignation as a red route makes little sense when from what I could find, it was already a conventional clearway, and it's not part of any red route network such as those found in London/Birmingham/Edinburgh. I know that it's been easier to designate a road as a red route for about the past 5 years since the DfT permission requirement was dropped. Are there any differences in the stopping restrictions on a conventional clearway vs a red route which may have caused its redesignation?
RJDG14

See my Geograph profile here - http://www.geograph.org.uk/profile/74193
The Swindon Files - Swindon's modern history - http://rjdg14.altervista.org/swindon/

----
If I break a policy designed only to protect me and nobody else, have I really broken anything?

User avatar
solocle
Member
Posts: 210
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 18:27

Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by solocle » Mon May 17, 2021 20:46

Red routes cover the verges and footpaths, clearways do not.

User avatar
RJDG14
Member
Posts: 3691
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 15:47
Location: Swindon
Contact:

Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by RJDG14 » Mon May 17, 2021 21:00

solocle wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 20:46
Red routes cover the verges and footpaths, clearways do not.
I've come across clearways, such as the A420 between Swindon and Oxford, which have "no waiting at any time on verge" signs alongside their clearway designation, though.
RJDG14

See my Geograph profile here - http://www.geograph.org.uk/profile/74193
The Swindon Files - Swindon's modern history - http://rjdg14.altervista.org/swindon/

----
If I break a policy designed only to protect me and nobody else, have I really broken anything?

User avatar
solocle
Member
Posts: 210
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 18:27

Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by solocle » Mon May 17, 2021 21:50

It's notable that solid white lines create restrictions similar to that of a clearway, in that it creates a prohibition against stopping, however,
Nothing in sub-paragraph (1)(a) applies—
(a) so as to prevent a vehicle stopping in a lay-by;
(b) to a vehicle being used for at least one of the following purposes—
(i) fire and rescue authority;
(ii) Scottish Fire and Rescue Service;
(iii) traffic officer;
(iv) ambulance;
(v) providing a response to an emergency at the request of an NHS ambulance service;
(vi) bomb or explosive disposal;
(vii) special forces;
(viii) police; and
(ix) National Crime Agency.
(c) to a pedal cycle;
(d) to a vehicle stopping in any case where the person in control of the vehicle is required by law to stop, or is obliged to do so in order to avoid an accident, or
is prevented from proceeding by circumstances outside the person’s control;
(e) to anything done with the permission or at the direction of a constable in uniform, traffic officer in uniform or in accordance with the direction of a traffic
warden; or
(f) to a vehicle on a road with more than one traffic lane in each direction.
Then we have an urban clearway,
No stopping during time periods indicated except for so long as may be necessary for the purpose of picking up or setting down passengers
RJDG14 wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 21:00
solocle wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 20:46
Red routes cover the verges and footpaths, clearways do not.
I've come across clearways, such as the A420 between Swindon and Oxford, which have "no waiting at any time on verge" signs alongside their clearway designation, though.
So fundamentally the difference between a solid white line and a clearway is that you may stop if there's more than one lane, or if you're a cyclist. An urban clearway is a clearway where you can alight, and a red route is a clearway which applies to the verge and footpath. Of course, you can add extra signs to have the same effect, as you refer to, it's probably a stylistic choice. And I've almost certainly violated the restriction on that bit of the A420 then...
Capture4_1.JPG
That was nearing halfway into my first ever 100 km ride, Oxford-Swindon-Oxford.

Although actually looking closer, the restriction is against waiting on the verge or footway, so it's probably fine to stop briefly! Although I almost certainly stopped on the carriageway to lift my bike onto the verge.

User avatar
RJDG14
Member
Posts: 3691
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 15:47
Location: Swindon
Contact:

Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by RJDG14 » Tue May 18, 2021 01:00

solocle wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 21:50
It's notable that solid white lines create restrictions similar to that of a clearway, in that it creates a prohibition against stopping, however,
Nothing in sub-paragraph (1)(a) applies—
(a) so as to prevent a vehicle stopping in a lay-by;
(b) to a vehicle being used for at least one of the following purposes—
(i) fire and rescue authority;
(ii) Scottish Fire and Rescue Service;
(iii) traffic officer;
(iv) ambulance;
(v) providing a response to an emergency at the request of an NHS ambulance service;
(vi) bomb or explosive disposal;
(vii) special forces;
(viii) police; and
(ix) National Crime Agency.
(c) to a pedal cycle;
(d) to a vehicle stopping in any case where the person in control of the vehicle is required by law to stop, or is obliged to do so in order to avoid an accident, or
is prevented from proceeding by circumstances outside the person’s control;
(e) to anything done with the permission or at the direction of a constable in uniform, traffic officer in uniform or in accordance with the direction of a traffic
warden; or
(f) to a vehicle on a road with more than one traffic lane in each direction.
Then we have an urban clearway,
No stopping during time periods indicated except for so long as may be necessary for the purpose of picking up or setting down passengers
RJDG14 wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 21:00
solocle wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 20:46
Red routes cover the verges and footpaths, clearways do not.
I've come across clearways, such as the A420 between Swindon and Oxford, which have "no waiting at any time on verge" signs alongside their clearway designation, though.
So fundamentally the difference between a solid white line and a clearway is that you may stop if there's more than one lane, or if you're a cyclist. An urban clearway is a clearway where you can alight, and a red route is a clearway which applies to the verge and footpath. Of course, you can add extra signs to have the same effect, as you refer to, it's probably a stylistic choice. And I've almost certainly violated the restriction on that bit of the A420 then...
Capture4_1.JPG
That was nearing halfway into my first ever 100 km ride, Oxford-Swindon-Oxford.

Although actually looking closer, the restriction is against waiting on the verge or footway, so it's probably fine to stop briefly! Although I almost certainly stopped on the carriageway to lift my bike onto the verge.
I can't find anything to suggest that stopping is prohibited on a road with solid white lines that isn't otherwise designated as a clearway - I think a regular white edge marking is just to denote the lane from the hard strips or kerb.

I don't believe clearway regulations apply to non-motor traffic, or if they do they're not enforced as such, so you should have been fine stopping on the verge of the A420.

There was a time when my dad had a mild accident a couple of years ago (his front left tyre hit the kerb and it got slashed) on the Syndenham Bypass in Belfast, which is designated as an Urban Clearway (brief stopping permitted but no waiting; I have a feeling it was a full clearway until the 1980s). There were a couple of police patrolling the road due to a nearby football match between a Nationalist and Loyalist team, and one of them pulled over to politely check why my dad had stopped (they were perfectly satisfied with his reason). I believe enforcement would be similar on a regular clearway except that they could potentially pull over to a car that was only stopped briefly, whereas on an urban clearway you'd generally be fine as long as you were stopped for less than a minute or so.

I still regularly see people stopping briefly to drop someone off on some of the clearways in Swindon, and they seem to in practice be treated very similarly to an urban clearway such as the Syndenham Bypass. I know that there's generally stricter enforcement on red routes than regular clearways.
RJDG14

See my Geograph profile here - http://www.geograph.org.uk/profile/74193
The Swindon Files - Swindon's modern history - http://rjdg14.altervista.org/swindon/

----
If I break a policy designed only to protect me and nobody else, have I really broken anything?

User avatar
Bryn666
Member
Posts: 30946
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54

Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by Bryn666 » Tue May 18, 2021 08:42

Solocle is saying, correctly, that double white lines denote no stopping.

White edge lines have no legal meaning.
Bryn
Traffic/Road Safety Dogsbody and General Grumpy Now-a-Thirtysomething Man
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/

User avatar
solocle
Member
Posts: 210
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 18:27

Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by solocle » Tue May 18, 2021 09:12

Bryn666 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 08:42
Solocle is saying, correctly, that double white lines denote no stopping.

White edge lines have no legal meaning.
But there's a few variants, which is why I felt solid white line was clearer, neglecting the edge of the carriageway!
Capture.PNG

User avatar
Bryn666
Member
Posts: 30946
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54

Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by Bryn666 » Tue May 18, 2021 09:41

solocle wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 09:12
Bryn666 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 08:42
Solocle is saying, correctly, that double white lines denote no stopping.

White edge lines have no legal meaning.
But there's a few variants, which is why I felt solid white line was clearer, neglecting the edge of the carriageway!
Capture.PNG
The prohibition on stopping applies to all those diagram types though except for the exemptions listed.

As for stylistic choice, it is now but prior to the introduction of Red Routes way back in 1991 (they replaced all the Urban Clearways on those roads, the idea being Red Routes negated the need to widen roads in London ever again because of all the freed up road space by banning stopping), you had to use the no waiting on verge or footway sign in conjunction with a normal clearway to get the same effect.
Bryn
Traffic/Road Safety Dogsbody and General Grumpy Now-a-Thirtysomething Man
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/

User avatar
solocle
Member
Posts: 210
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 18:27

Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by solocle » Tue May 18, 2021 10:10

Bryn666 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 09:41
solocle wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 09:12
Bryn666 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 08:42
Solocle is saying, correctly, that double white lines denote no stopping.

White edge lines have no legal meaning.
But there's a few variants, which is why I felt solid white line was clearer, neglecting the edge of the carriageway!
Capture.PNG
The prohibition on stopping applies to all those diagram types though except for the exemptions listed.

As for stylistic choice, it is now but prior to the introduction of Red Routes way back in 1991 (they replaced all the Urban Clearways on those roads, the idea being Red Routes negated the need to widen roads in London ever again because of all the freed up road space by banning stopping), you had to use the no waiting on verge or footway sign in conjunction with a normal clearway to get the same effect.
On further thought I would quibble about edge lines having no legal meaning. They denote the edge of the carriageway, which is important to clearway regulations.

Perhaps relevant where an A road has a hard shoulder, e.g the A27 Havant Bypass.

User avatar
Bryn666
Member
Posts: 30946
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54

Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by Bryn666 » Tue May 18, 2021 10:20

solocle wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 10:10
Bryn666 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 09:41
solocle wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 09:12

But there's a few variants, which is why I felt solid white line was clearer, neglecting the edge of the carriageway!
Capture.PNG
The prohibition on stopping applies to all those diagram types though except for the exemptions listed.

As for stylistic choice, it is now but prior to the introduction of Red Routes way back in 1991 (they replaced all the Urban Clearways on those roads, the idea being Red Routes negated the need to widen roads in London ever again because of all the freed up road space by banning stopping), you had to use the no waiting on verge or footway sign in conjunction with a normal clearway to get the same effect.
On further thought I would quibble about edge lines having no legal meaning. They denote the edge of the carriageway, which is important to clearway regulations.

Perhaps relevant where an A road has a hard shoulder, e.g the A27 Havant Bypass.
Kerbs do the same thing - hence why edge lines have no legal meaning.
Bryn
Traffic/Road Safety Dogsbody and General Grumpy Now-a-Thirtysomething Man
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/

Bomag
Member
Posts: 610
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 23:26

Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by Bomag » Tue May 18, 2021 10:27

No Bryn, the edge lines do have a legal meaning, which is why Diagram 1040.3 is not prescribed for use on the nearside.

If you have both an edgeline and kerb, the edgeline delineates the edge of the carriageway not the kerb. Also a kerb is a terrible delineator compared to an edgeline. Come the revolution, well CAVs, a lot more of the network is going to need them.

User avatar
Bryn666
Member
Posts: 30946
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54

Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by Bryn666 » Tue May 18, 2021 10:52

Bomag wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 10:27
No Bryn, the edge lines do have a legal meaning, which is why Diagram 1040.3 is not prescribed for use on the nearside.

If you have both an edgeline and kerb, the edgeline delineates the edge of the carriageway not the kerb. Also a kerb is a terrible delineator compared to an edgeline. Come the revolution, well CAVs, a lot more of the network is going to need them.
But that is not the same as saying the edge line is legally required for a clearway - it is not. An edge line has no legal effect on a clearway's existence, it's not required for enforcement - if it was I wouldn't have been able to regularly send CEOs into Brighouse to enforce the Ludenscheid Link and associated clearways, nor Burdock Way's slip roads in Halifax. Was like shooting fish in a barrel, that one.

Cheshire Police don't even bother with if there's a TRO/double white lines or not; they just tell you park here and you'll risk being done for obstruction and thus collect 3 points for your trouble.

https://goo.gl/maps/STs2ekzSyHRsrWrq8
https://goo.gl/maps/JiBhBKGXRPSnc2nD9
Bryn
Traffic/Road Safety Dogsbody and General Grumpy Now-a-Thirtysomething Man
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/

WHBM
Member
Posts: 8182
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 18:01
Location: London

Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by WHBM » Tue May 18, 2021 11:41

There was confusion among London black cab drivers when Red Routes were first introduced as to whether they could stop to pick up a fare, and I seem to recall conflicting responses given by different authorities about it. Anyway, in the end they do without issue.

I understand edge white lines, which are sometimes applied in short lengths across driveway entrances etc, can be enforced for parking there; I recall an issue where someone had badgered their authority into doing so, and then got a ticket for parking across their own driveway. They somehow seemed to feel it was to give them their own private parking space.

I always felt that double yellow lines, which are a considerable urban eyesore, should have been done differently, with single yellow, as now, for in the working day, and single white for at any time. I guess that with the old orange sodium lamps it would be difficult to distinguish them at light.

User avatar
Chris Bertram
Committee Member
Posts: 13111
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by Chris Bertram » Tue May 18, 2021 11:58

WHBM wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 11:41
There was confusion among London black cab drivers when Red Routes were first introduced as to whether they could stop to pick up a fare, and I seem to recall conflicting responses given by different authorities about it. Anyway, in the end they do without issue.

I understand edge white lines, which are sometimes applied in short lengths across driveway entrances etc, can be enforced for parking there; I recall an issue where someone had badgered their authority into doing so, and then got a ticket for parking across their own driveway. They somehow seemed to feel it was to give them their own private parking space.

I always felt that double yellow lines, which are a considerable urban eyesore, should have been done differently, with single yellow, as now, for in the working day, and single white for at any time. I guess that with the old orange sodium lamps it would be difficult to distinguish them at light.
Remember dashed yellow lines for "less than the working day"? They went some time ago.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

User avatar
Bryn666
Member
Posts: 30946
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54

Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by Bryn666 » Tue May 18, 2021 12:14

WHBM wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 11:41
There was confusion among London black cab drivers when Red Routes were first introduced as to whether they could stop to pick up a fare, and I seem to recall conflicting responses given by different authorities about it. Anyway, in the end they do without issue.

I understand edge white lines, which are sometimes applied in short lengths across driveway entrances etc, can be enforced for parking there; I recall an issue where someone had badgered their authority into doing so, and then got a ticket for parking across their own driveway. They somehow seemed to feel it was to give them their own private parking space.

I always felt that double yellow lines, which are a considerable urban eyesore, should have been done differently, with single yellow, as now, for in the working day, and single white for at any time. I guess that with the old orange sodium lamps it would be difficult to distinguish them at light.
The "H" bar, as it's nicknamed, is a separate marking entirely.
Bryn
Traffic/Road Safety Dogsbody and General Grumpy Now-a-Thirtysomething Man
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/

User avatar
Truvelo
Member
Posts: 16491
Joined: Wed May 29, 2002 21:10
Location: Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by Truvelo » Tue May 18, 2021 12:48

At one time there used to be dashed white edge markings on rural roads. What difference was this to solid lines?
How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
Big and complex.

User avatar
Bryn666
Member
Posts: 30946
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54

Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by Bryn666 » Tue May 18, 2021 13:14

Truvelo wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 12:48
At one time there used to be dashed white edge markings on rural roads. What difference was this to solid lines?
Solid represented a hazard, e.g. a bend. Dashed meant "this is the edge".
Bryn
Traffic/Road Safety Dogsbody and General Grumpy Now-a-Thirtysomething Man
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/

User avatar
RJDG14
Member
Posts: 3691
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 15:47
Location: Swindon
Contact:

Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by RJDG14 » Tue May 18, 2021 14:41

If a solid white edge line denotes the edge of where the clearway restrictions apply, then would it in theory be legal to pull onto the hard strip/verge of the A419/17 dual carriageway (designated as a regular clearway) for the purpose of a non-essential stop?

Previously I believed that a solid double centre line simply denoted "no overtaking", and wasn't aware that such markings also prohibited stopping in the lane.


I know that solid central markings are far more common in the Republic of Ireland than Britain, yet it has practically no rural clearways excluding a couple of tunnels and its motorways. Most of its newer N-road stretches also have a full hard shoulder unlike here, and is it generally legal in Ireland to stop on the hard shoulder of a rural N-road if that road has a solid central marking like many do? I believe so, as I saw some farmers' stalls selling produce on the hard shoulder of one road last year.

Northern Ireland has relatively few rural clearways outside of Co. Antrim, where they are quite common.
RJDG14

See my Geograph profile here - http://www.geograph.org.uk/profile/74193
The Swindon Files - Swindon's modern history - http://rjdg14.altervista.org/swindon/

----
If I break a policy designed only to protect me and nobody else, have I really broken anything?

User avatar
Bryn666
Member
Posts: 30946
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54

Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by Bryn666 » Tue May 18, 2021 15:12

RJDG14 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 14:41
If a solid white edge line denotes the edge of where the clearway restrictions apply, then would it in theory be legal to pull onto the hard strip/verge of the A419/17 dual carriageway (designated as a regular clearway) for the purpose of a non-essential stop?

Previously I believed that a solid double centre line simply denoted "no overtaking", and wasn't aware that such markings also prohibited stopping in the lane.


I know that solid central markings are far more common in the Republic of Ireland than Britain, yet it has practically no rural clearways excluding a couple of tunnels and its motorways. Most of its newer N-road stretches also have a full hard shoulder unlike here, and is it generally legal in Ireland to stop on the hard shoulder of a rural N-road if that road has a solid central marking like many do? I believe so, as I saw some farmers' stalls selling produce on the hard shoulder of one road last year.

Northern Ireland has relatively few rural clearways outside of Co. Antrim, where they are quite common.
That's why I don't buy the logic that the painted line means edge of carriageway because stopping in the hard strip is monumentally dangerous.
Bryn
Traffic/Road Safety Dogsbody and General Grumpy Now-a-Thirtysomething Man
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/

User avatar
Alderpoint
Member
Posts: 1043
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 14:25
Location: Leamington Spa

Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by Alderpoint » Tue May 18, 2021 15:31

Bryn666 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 15:12
That's why I don't buy the logic that the painted line means edge of carriageway because stopping in the hard strip is monumentally dangerous.
What does the solid white lines on the edge of the tarmac here mean then? If you look where the mini is parked, it goes dashed.
Let it snow.

Post Reply