The lesser known Roman roads

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Steven
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Re: The lesser known Roman roads

Post by Steven » Wed Jun 09, 2021 07:55

FosseWay wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 06:54
Steven wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 18:59
KeithW wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 18:58
It would be rather cool to have a Roman Roads layer in Sabre Maps.
It would, and it's on my "to do" list!
I have the 1928 version of the map Keith mentioned, but I'm figuring the 1956 one is better (28 years more research will have uncovered more detail, I imagine). I take it the copyright on the OS historical maps is the same as on 1", i.e. 50 years? I can't remember offhand which ones I've got, but I have some other OS historical maps produced on the 10-mile base map.
Yep, they're all Crown Copyright, so 50 years from the copyright date.

We do have some of the historical sheets scanned (though not all are relevant to SABRE) - some are 1:625,000 (or Ten Mile); some are 1:1,000,000 (or Sixteen Mile).

It sounds like people want at least the Roman one of these pushing to the front of the SABRE Maps queue - am I reading the room correctly on this?
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Re: The lesser known Roman roads

Post by JohnnyMo » Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:04

Does anyone know the history of A429 (was A46) it looks Roman and runs almost direct to Kenilworth Castle, it is a few miles west of Fosse Way and almost parallel.
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Re: The lesser known Roman roads

Post by solocle » Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:16

JohnnyMo wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:04
Does anyone know the history of A429 (was A46) it looks Roman and runs almost direct to Kenilworth Castle, it is a few miles west of Fosse Way and almost parallel.
A curious one - on the bank holiday Friday, I went out and rode a good section of the Fosse Way, but didn't quite get that far!
Capture.JPG
Another hint there is that south of Kenilworth, there's a suspiciously well aligned parish boundary and bridleway. With a lot of satellite guesswork, it seems to lead to Stratford-upon-Avon.

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Re: The lesser known Roman roads

Post by Glenn A » Fri Jun 11, 2021 18:26

The A69/A186 into Newcastle city centre, with its little piece of Hadrians Wall in West Denton for the locals to admire.

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Re: The lesser known Roman roads

Post by jabbaboy » Fri Jun 11, 2021 19:31

Haven't seen the one from Wrekenton to South Shields mentioned on any of the links above (other than the main map) which connected to Cade's Road at Wrekenton and called Wrekendyke so guess that's pretty much unknown. It's pretty obvious where part of it was though and is still used today (Leam Lane).

https://saxonhistory.co.uk/Location_Mar ... %20Shields

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Re: The lesser known Roman roads

Post by ajuk » Sat Jun 12, 2021 02:01

What I don't quite understand is why some remain for the most part in their entirity like the Fosse Way where even where the road was bypasses centuries ago the original course it still at least a footpath, others where the road is gone, but the line of the road is clearly visible as field boundaries such as the road from Silchester to Bath, and other where no trace seems to remain, and I can even see Cropmark on satellite views and example of this would be the one that dissects the Bristol to Bath Railway path and there's a statue where the road apparently crossed the old railway line.
Anther example is the route from Bath to Sea Mills through Bristol, some of that does follow modern roads, why has this road been ignored and built over as the city expanded? I'm guessing most of it was long abandoned and ploughed over by the time the city expanded?
Possibly down to the importance and standard of the road, in some cases the Roman road might not have been straight and so it does survive.

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Re: The lesser known Roman roads

Post by KeithW » Sat Jun 12, 2021 08:25

ajuk wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 02:01
What I don't quite understand is why some remain for the most part in their entirity like the Fosse Way where even where the road was bypasses centuries ago the original course it still at least a footpath, others where the road is gone, but the line of the road is clearly visible as field boundaries such as the road from Silchester to Bath, and other where no trace seems to remain, and I can even see Cropmark on satellite views and example of this would be the one that dissects the Bristol to Bath Railway path and there's a statue where the road apparently crossed the old railway line.
Anther example is the route from Bath to Sea Mills through Bristol, some of that does follow modern roads, why has this road been ignored and built over as the city expanded? I'm guessing most of it was long abandoned and ploughed over by the time the city expanded?
Possibly down to the importance and standard of the road, in some cases the Roman road might not have been straight and so it does survive.
Well there are at least 2 factors at work here.

Firstly the Romans simply improved many existing routes that were in use by the local tribes then and are still in use today. I suppose the best known of these is Ermine Street which now consists of the following routes

London to Stamford along what is now the A10 to Royston, the A1198 to Godmanchester and Alconbury then the A1 to Stamford

From Stamford the road diverges from the A1 through Ancaster to the A17 and eventually follows the A15 to Lincoln crosses the Humber heads for York rejoining the A1 to Scoth Corner and Catterick

etc

Other roads which were built for Roman military purposes on the other hand have all but disappeared as the sites they served fell out of use. An example is the road over Wheeldale Moor from the Roman base at Cawthorn Camps near Pickering to a Roman Signal Station near Kettlenes. This road was used in the mediaeval period by the Monasteries and Priories but fell out of use when they were dissolved.

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Re: The lesser known Roman roads

Post by c2R » Sat Jun 12, 2021 20:34

KeithW wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 08:25
I suppose the best known of these is Ermine Street which now consists of the following routes

London to Stamford along what is now the A10 to Royston, the A1198 to Godmanchester and Alconbury then the A1 to Stamford
What is interesting here, though is that between Enfield and Ware, Ermine Street took a course to the west of the road that became the A10, which was along the Lea Valley. Then, the Great Cambridge Road, and later, the Hoddesdon bypass added a new, Roman-like (in its direct course) route between Ermine Street and the the old A10.

Presumably the Lea valley was too boggy in Roman times for the route to follow the road so it kept to higher ground, but by the time the settlements grew up, civilisation had moved to the riverbanks to make use of the fertile land alongside the river, and of course the river itself - and Ermine street was all but abandoned.
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Re: The lesser known Roman roads

Post by ajuk » Sun Jun 13, 2021 01:40

I've noticed in a least one place the Roman road was abandoned on Victorian maps, a modern road now occupies where the roman road once was. Another good example of an anomaly is the road from Midsomer Norton to Radstock, it's difficult to see why that road was abandoned, however I'm thinking it was possibly a road until the coming of the railways which would explain the location of The Lamb at Clandown.
That's before we get into there being Old Bath Road and a Bristol Road, I wonder which came first?

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Re: The lesser known Roman roads

Post by KeithW » Sun Jun 13, 2021 09:05

ajuk wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 01:40
I've noticed in a least one place the Roman road was abandoned on Victorian maps, a modern road now occupies where the roman road once was. Another good example of an anomaly is the road from Midsomer Norton to Radstock, it's difficult to see why that road was abandoned, however I'm thinking it was possibly a road until the coming of the railways which would explain the location of The Lamb at Clandown.
That's before we get into there being Old Bath Road and a Bristol Road, I wonder which came first?
That was I believe due to the construction of a new Turnpike Road to carry heavy minerals traffic.
http://turnpikes.org.uk/Somerset%20-%20Radstock.htm

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Re: The lesser known Roman roads

Post by jgharston » Sun Jun 13, 2021 17:51

KeithW wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 08:25
Other roads which were built for Roman military purposes on the other hand have all but disappeared as the sites they served fell out of use. An example is the road over Wheeldale Moor from the Roman base at Cawthorn Camps near Pickering to a Roman Signal Station near Kettlenes. This road was used in the mediaeval period by the Monasteries and Priories but fell out of use when they were dissolved.
There's a theory that the Wheeldale Moor road was an engineering training road rather than a regular "proper" road, used to practice road building and maintaince.

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Re: The lesser known Roman roads

Post by skiddaw05 » Mon Jun 14, 2021 00:43

Just wondering - did Ermin Way always divert from its fairly straight route to go into Cricklade?

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Re: The lesser known Roman roads

Post by Bryn666 » Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:02

Steven wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 07:55
FosseWay wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 06:54
Steven wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 18:59


It would, and it's on my "to do" list!
I have the 1928 version of the map Keith mentioned, but I'm figuring the 1956 one is better (28 years more research will have uncovered more detail, I imagine). I take it the copyright on the OS historical maps is the same as on 1", i.e. 50 years? I can't remember offhand which ones I've got, but I have some other OS historical maps produced on the 10-mile base map.
Yep, they're all Crown Copyright, so 50 years from the copyright date.

We do have some of the historical sheets scanned (though not all are relevant to SABRE) - some are 1:625,000 (or Ten Mile); some are 1:1,000,000 (or Sixteen Mile).

It sounds like people want at least the Roman one of these pushing to the front of the SABRE Maps queue - am I reading the room correctly on this?
I've just seen this - go for it.
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Re: The lesser known Roman roads

Post by c2R » Mon Jun 14, 2021 14:09

Bryn666 wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:02
Steven wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 07:55
FosseWay wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 06:54


I have the 1928 version of the map Keith mentioned, but I'm figuring the 1956 one is better (28 years more research will have uncovered more detail, I imagine). I take it the copyright on the OS historical maps is the same as on 1", i.e. 50 years? I can't remember offhand which ones I've got, but I have some other OS historical maps produced on the 10-mile base map.
Yep, they're all Crown Copyright, so 50 years from the copyright date.

We do have some of the historical sheets scanned (though not all are relevant to SABRE) - some are 1:625,000 (or Ten Mile); some are 1:1,000,000 (or Sixteen Mile).

It sounds like people want at least the Roman one of these pushing to the front of the SABRE Maps queue - am I reading the room correctly on this?
I've just seen this - go for it.
The hold up on this one is me at the moment; I'll push it up my priority queue.
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps

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Re: The lesser known Roman roads

Post by Bryn666 » Mon Jun 14, 2021 14:12

c2R wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 14:09
Bryn666 wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:02
Steven wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 07:55


Yep, they're all Crown Copyright, so 50 years from the copyright date.

We do have some of the historical sheets scanned (though not all are relevant to SABRE) - some are 1:625,000 (or Ten Mile); some are 1:1,000,000 (or Sixteen Mile).

It sounds like people want at least the Roman one of these pushing to the front of the SABRE Maps queue - am I reading the room correctly on this?
I've just seen this - go for it.
The hold up on this one is me at the moment; I'll push it up my priority queue.
It's not a command, you don't need to drop your life for it :lol:
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Re: The lesser known Roman roads

Post by solocle » Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:23

Talking of old maps, found this one lying around!

1961 with some new RoW added in 1966.
60C95C3A-1072-44CA-928F-48474C3E31A9.jpeg

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Re: The lesser known Roman roads

Post by M4Simon » Sun Jun 20, 2021 15:00

solocle wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:23
Talking of old maps, found this one lying around!

1961 with some new RoW added in 1966.
60C95C3A-1072-44CA-928F-48474C3E31A9.jpeg
That would appear to be the B/* edition which we already have on SABRE Maps. It would be worth checking the revision code posted on the map and comparing it with the table on this page: https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... the_map.3F

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