LHR Perimeter Road Average Speed Cameras

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
BOH
Member
Posts: 88
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2016 14:19

LHR Perimeter Road Average Speed Cameras

Post by BOH » Thu Jun 17, 2021 18:20

Apologies if this has been posted before but I noticed yesterday there are average speed cameras around the perimeter road at LHR, from T5 round past the Pod parking and past the T5 Business and Long Term parking. They are also the same tiny cameras you see for average speed checks on other roads, ie through motorway road works.

They are very easy to miss (as I may have done) so will be watching my post with baited breath in the next few weeks.

Al__S
Member
Posts: 452
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:56

Re: LHR Perimeter Road Average Speed Cameras

Post by Al__S » Thu Jun 17, 2021 19:29

a little search suggests they've been there for two years.

BOH
Member
Posts: 88
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2016 14:19

Re: LHR Perimeter Road Average Speed Cameras

Post by BOH » Thu Jun 17, 2021 20:04

Al__S wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 19:29
a little search suggests they've been there for two years.
How funny that a little search using the terms "Heathrow T5 Speed Cameras" or "Heathrow Perimeter Road Speed Cameras" did not suggest anything of the sort. Lots of posts about average speed cameras being installed on the M4 between Chiswick and Heathrow but not specifically about the perimeter road from T5 round to Pod parking or Long Term car park.

User avatar
Chris5156
Member
Posts: 14695
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: LHR Perimeter Road Average Speed Cameras

Post by Chris5156 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 01:08

The Perimeter Road is privately owned and maintained by the airport operator, and I expect they installed the cameras to deal with the very poor compliance with the 30 limit. The northwestern part of the Perimeter Road suffers in particular with traffic diverting off the M25 and heading for the M4 - Google Maps will send local traffic for Southall and Uxbridge this way if the M25/M40 route is badly congested. As a consequence I expect this road is carrying a lot of traffic that has nothing to do with the airport, and anything that makes it less attractive is probably no bad thing from BAA's point of view.

User avatar
Bryn666
Member
Posts: 31246
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54

Re: LHR Perimeter Road Average Speed Cameras

Post by Bryn666 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 09:56

Chris5156 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 01:08
The Perimeter Road is privately owned and maintained by the airport operator, and I expect they installed the cameras to deal with the very poor compliance with the 30 limit. The northwestern part of the Perimeter Road suffers in particular with traffic diverting off the M25 and heading for the M4 - Google Maps will send local traffic for Southall and Uxbridge this way if the M25/M40 route is badly congested. As a consequence I expect this road is carrying a lot of traffic that has nothing to do with the airport, and anything that makes it less attractive is probably no bad thing from BAA's point of view.
When I was working on alternative plans for Heathrow West we had specific issues raised about the Perimeter Road for this very reason. Access controls and public transport priority were very much at the forefront, not least because tunnels would have been involved due to the new runway.
Bryn
Traffic/Road Safety Dogsbody and General Grumpy Now-a-Thirtysomething Man
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/

doebag
Member
Posts: 1958
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 11:47
Location: Wisbech, Cambs

Re: LHR Perimeter Road Average Speed Cameras

Post by doebag » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:05

As it is privately owned, if the owner chose to
1/ Close it to all non airport traffic
2/ Set up a charge zone for users

Would they be able to do so without question and what would the effect be on traffic flows in the area?

Ronnie
Member
Posts: 267
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 16:36

Re: LHR Perimeter Road Average Speed Cameras

Post by Ronnie » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:09

BOH wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 18:20
Apologies if this has been posted before but I noticed yesterday there are average speed cameras around the perimeter road at LHR, from T5 round past the Pod parking and past the T5 Business and Long Term parking. They are also the same tiny cameras you see for average speed checks on other roads, ie through motorway road works.

They are very easy to miss (as I may have done) so will be watching my post with baited breath in the next few weeks.
I thought there had to be prominent signage in an average speed check area, or is that not required for a private road? Also given it’s a private road, are the fines they dish out actually legally enforceable? Are there more examples of speed cameras on private roads around the UK?

Sorry lots of questions!

User avatar
Bryn666
Member
Posts: 31246
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54

Re: LHR Perimeter Road Average Speed Cameras

Post by Bryn666 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:52

doebag wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:05
As it is privately owned, if the owner chose to
1/ Close it to all non airport traffic
2/ Set up a charge zone for users

Would they be able to do so without question and what would the effect be on traffic flows in the area?
There is talk of a Heathrow charging zone so it's entirely doable. Strictly speaking the roads are already closed to non-airport traffic and always have been: https://goo.gl/maps/8LbRoviG216YsoaP6 , https://goo.gl/maps/bzYWfRerMhNoBeYz9 , https://goo.gl/maps/dUj9KmvCVY5yx2Mb7 to name just three.

Although it looks like the T5 boys missed the memo as there's no Dia 618s entering from the M25 spur...
Bryn
Traffic/Road Safety Dogsbody and General Grumpy Now-a-Thirtysomething Man
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/

A320Driver
Member
Posts: 380
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 19:11
Location: Leatherhead

Re: LHR Perimeter Road Average Speed Cameras

Post by A320Driver » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:35

These cameras are neither instant speed, or average speed cameras. Mainly a deterrent, at worst you will get a letter from either HAL or the local plod. You only have to take a look at their size and compare with the HADECs seen on smart motorways to see they are vastly inferior in capability.

All to do with the airport’s planning application for the third runway and reducing emissions.
Formerly ‘guvvaA303’

doebag
Member
Posts: 1958
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 11:47
Location: Wisbech, Cambs

Re: LHR Perimeter Road Average Speed Cameras

Post by doebag » Fri Jun 18, 2021 18:28

Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:52


There is talk of a Heathrow charging zone so it's entirely doable. Strictly speaking the roads are already closed to non-airport traffic and always have been: https://goo.gl/maps/8LbRoviG216YsoaP6 , https://goo.gl/maps/bzYWfRerMhNoBeYz9 , https://goo.gl/maps/dUj9KmvCVY5yx2Mb7 to name just three.

Yes, I worked at Heathrow in the late 80’s.
But if they fully enforced it as only an airport road my guess is local authority roads would choke up.

User avatar
Bryn666
Member
Posts: 31246
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54

Re: LHR Perimeter Road Average Speed Cameras

Post by Bryn666 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 19:28

doebag wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 18:28
Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:52


There is talk of a Heathrow charging zone so it's entirely doable. Strictly speaking the roads are already closed to non-airport traffic and always have been: https://goo.gl/maps/8LbRoviG216YsoaP6 , https://goo.gl/maps/bzYWfRerMhNoBeYz9 , https://goo.gl/maps/dUj9KmvCVY5yx2Mb7 to name just three.

Yes, I worked at Heathrow in the late 80’s.
But if they fully enforced it as only an airport road my guess is local authority roads would choke up.
Yes, there is an argument for the Southern Perimeter Road being turned into an extension of the A3113 really and taken over by TfL. It seems weird to have this high quality route at the whims of the airport!
Bryn
Traffic/Road Safety Dogsbody and General Grumpy Now-a-Thirtysomething Man
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/

User avatar
Britain
Member
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 19:32

Re: LHR Perimeter Road Average Speed Cameras

Post by Britain » Sat Jun 19, 2021 03:43

https://www.westcotec.co.uk/portable-anpr/

You might find this link a relief.

User avatar
RichardA35
Site Manager
Posts: 4649
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2002 18:58
Location: Dorset

Re: LHR Perimeter Road Average Speed Cameras

Post by RichardA35 » Sat Jun 19, 2021 06:12

Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 19:28
doebag wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 18:28
Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:52


There is talk of a Heathrow charging zone so it's entirely doable. Strictly speaking the roads are already closed to non-airport traffic and always have been: https://goo.gl/maps/8LbRoviG216YsoaP6 , https://goo.gl/maps/bzYWfRerMhNoBeYz9 , https://goo.gl/maps/dUj9KmvCVY5yx2Mb7 to name just three.

Yes, I worked at Heathrow in the late 80’s.
But if they fully enforced it as only an airport road my guess is local authority roads would choke up.
Yes, there is an argument for the Southern Perimeter Road being turned into an extension of the A3113 really and taken over by TfL. It seems weird to have this high quality route at the whims of the airport!
AFAIK all the airport vehicles (staff and transfer buses) use red diesel and are "captive" on the private road network, so there would be an outcry, although the taxation advantatges are steadily being eroded.

WHBM
Member
Posts: 8254
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 18:01
Location: London

Re: LHR Perimeter Road Average Speed Cameras

Post by WHBM » Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:34

Not only red diesel, but you sometimes see "airside" vehicles which are non-roadgoing and do not have numberplates going along there.

I can't see how a private road can in any way legally enforce average speed (or any speed enforcement at all). The one thing they could enforce is to ban the vehicle owner/operator from using their roads, which would only impact airport companies.

Here at Canary Wharf there is an "enforcement" vehicle on the estate roads, a boldly-badged Smart with a roof-mounted camera, but in fact it's just a deterrent. Did look at one time (after a suggestion from the shareholders) about having the Canary Wharf "internal" vehicles on red diesel and unregistered, to save costs, but it rapidly became apparent it was impractical. For a start, there are no fuelling or servicing facilities within the private road network.

Uncle Buck
Member
Posts: 498
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 23:33

Re: LHR Perimeter Road Average Speed Cameras

Post by Uncle Buck » Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:37

WHBM wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:34
I can't see how a private road can in any way legally enforce average speed (or any speed enforcement at all). The one thing they could enforce is to ban the vehicle owner/operator from using their roads, which would only impact airport companies.
If you drive into a supermarket car park which says “2 Hours Maximum Stay; £50 fine applies” you accept that if you overstay you will pay the fine. So if you drive into the Heathrow road and it says “30mph speed limit; £100 fine applies” don’t you accept that?

User avatar
Truvelo
Member
Posts: 16537
Joined: Wed May 29, 2002 21:10
Location: Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: LHR Perimeter Road Average Speed Cameras

Post by Truvelo » Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:05

Uncle Buck wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:37
WHBM wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:34
I can't see how a private road can in any way legally enforce average speed (or any speed enforcement at all). The one thing they could enforce is to ban the vehicle owner/operator from using their roads, which would only impact airport companies.
If you drive into a supermarket car park which says “2 Hours Maximum Stay; £50 fine applies” you accept that if you overstay you will pay the fine. So if you drive into the Heathrow road and it says “30mph speed limit; £100 fine applies” don’t you accept that?
Police refuse to enforce speed limits on private roads so even if speeding fines can be issued privately there's no way penalty points can be added to licences.
How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
Big and complex.

User avatar
Bryn666
Member
Posts: 31246
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54

Re: LHR Perimeter Road Average Speed Cameras

Post by Bryn666 » Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:51

Truvelo wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:05
Uncle Buck wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:37
WHBM wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:34
I can't see how a private road can in any way legally enforce average speed (or any speed enforcement at all). The one thing they could enforce is to ban the vehicle owner/operator from using their roads, which would only impact airport companies.
If you drive into a supermarket car park which says “2 Hours Maximum Stay; £50 fine applies” you accept that if you overstay you will pay the fine. So if you drive into the Heathrow road and it says “30mph speed limit; £100 fine applies” don’t you accept that?
Police refuse to enforce speed limits on private roads so even if speeding fines can be issued privately there's no way penalty points can be added to licences.
No but being sent an invoice for several hundred quid for breach of terms and conditions of use, then having to try and contest it would be much more of an inconvenience to those who see no issue in zipping up and down the LHR road network. That would be quite a deterrent in itself.

In 2019 when these cameras were new compliance was very good. Given that employers can and will sack you for misuse of their sites the threat of losing a job is more of a threat than 3 points.

BAE in Barrow were threatening to hand out disciplinaries left right and centre when they redid their internal road networks and imposed a 10mph speed limit.
Bryn
Traffic/Road Safety Dogsbody and General Grumpy Now-a-Thirtysomething Man
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/

KeithW
Member
Posts: 11357
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: LHR Perimeter Road Average Speed Cameras

Post by KeithW » Sun Jun 20, 2021 13:36

Ronnie wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:09
I thought there had to be prominent signage in an average speed check area, or is that not required for a private road? Also given it’s a private road, are the fines they dish out actually legally enforceable? Are there more examples of speed cameras on private roads around the UK?

Sorry lots of questions!
Well I can cite one example from the 1970's

The ICI Wilton site had speed limits which were enforced by issuing security staff with speed guns, First offence would get tou a written warning. Subsequent offences would get your site pass withdrawn for a period of time. Given that the site was and is very large this was a quite a serious issue, From the West Gate to the Power Station where I worked it was about a 1.3 mile walk. Repeat offenderscould result in a penalty that was deducted from your pay. The limit was 40 mph as I recall and the highest speed recorded was by a draughtsman driving a Lotus 7 who was clocked at 94 mph

Looking at Google Maps aerial view I see Anglo American have started work on the Wilton terminal and processing site for the Woodsmith Mine. The halite is transported 30 km on an underground conveyor belt, no trucks required.

Post Reply