Moving a borough / district boundary

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Telstarbox
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Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by Telstarbox » Thu Jun 17, 2021 22:47

I know that some council districts have been merged recently such as those in Buckinghamshire and Suffolk, but is land ever moved between districts nowadays?

The specific situation I'm thinking of is some undeveloped land which is currently at the extreme edge of one district, but it's allocated for development and would then sit more logically with the settlements in the neighbouring district.

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c2R
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by c2R » Thu Jun 17, 2021 22:50

Telstarbox wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 22:47
I know that some council districts have been merged recently such as those in Buckinghamshire and Suffolk, but is land ever moved between districts nowadays?

The specific situation I'm thinking of is some undeveloped land which is currently at the extreme edge of one district, but it's allocated for development and would then sit more logically with the settlements in the neighbouring district.
Yes, it happens all the time at various different levels. See legislation.gov.uk e.g https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/615
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by Steven » Fri Jun 18, 2021 08:01

Telstarbox wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 22:47
I know that some council districts have been merged recently such as those in Buckinghamshire and Suffolk, but is land ever moved between districts nowadays?
Absolutely all the time! This is exactly the reason that historic counties (which haven't changed since the Detached Parts Act of 1848) are preferred as a static geography over administrative areas.

Administrative geography (especially in England) is in a constant state of flux, with various parcels of land moving back and forth regularly. For example, the lake of Chasewater (near to Norton Canes services on the M6 Toll) has moved back and forth between Walsall MBC and Staffordshire CC on a regular basis since 1974.

Another good example near to me in the area around Aldersley High School, Wolverhampton. In the attachment, there are some reasonably modern local authority boundaries overlaid on the modern OSM map of 1981 (purple), 1991 (green) and 2001 (light blue).

You can see that between 1981 and 1991 there was some "tidying up" done on the boundary, with Barnhurst Lane moving from Wolverhampton CC managed to Staffordshire CC managed, and the boundary being tied to the edge of the urban area.

Between 1991 and 2001, the school was built, and the land was transferred from Staffordshire CC responsibility to that of Wolverhampton CC, and the section of Barnhurst Lane that was moved in the previous decade got moved back. You can also see that there was a section of the housing estate on the east side of the extract that moved between local authorities at the same time.
Aldersley HS.JPG
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by trickstat » Fri Jun 18, 2021 08:21

In the early '90s, the Hertfordshire town of Royston had expanded over the Cambridgeshire border, so the Herts/Cambs or North Herts/South Cambs boundary was moved to the A505 Royston bypass.

TBH, I think there should be more of this happening than is going on currently. For example, the Stevenage/North Herts boundary runs through the 1990s Great Ashby development which ought to be in Stevenage. Also, quite a lot of the town of Watford falls in Three Rivers rather than Watford Borough.

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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by KeithW » Fri Jun 18, 2021 08:31

My house has been in 4 different districts

North Riding County Council
County Borough of Teesside
Cleveland County Council
Middlesbrough Council

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the cheesecake man
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by the cheesecake man » Fri Jun 18, 2021 13:19

The transfer of Mosborough and Beighton, then Derbyshire villages, into Sheffield in 1967 is an excellent example. Dore and Norton were similarly moved early in the twentieth century.

Here's a counterexample in Derby where moving the boundary would be sensible but hasn't happened:
sf.png

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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by Steven » Fri Jun 18, 2021 13:31

trickstat wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 08:21
Also, quite a lot of the town of Watford falls in Three Rivers rather than Watford Borough.
That's reasonably common - large chunks of Wolverhampton are outside the City Council boundary, variously in Walsall MBC, South Staffordshire DC and Dudley MBC; whilst large parts of Manchester are in Trafford and Bury MBCs; some of the eastern parts of Birmingham are in Solihull MBC; with Nottingham being another obvious example of a city that is larger than the like-named local authority.

Other local authorities are much wider, for example, Leeds CC takes in Wetherby and Wakefield itself is only a relatively small part of the Wakefield CC area.

It's why comparing data at the local authority level is very much apples and pears; and also why the conflation of place and like-named local authorities is false.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by Bryn666 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 14:21

the cheesecake man wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 13:19
The transfer of Mosborough and Beighton, then Derbyshire villages, into Sheffield in 1967 is an excellent example. Dore and Norton were similarly moved early in the twentieth century.

Here's a counterexample in Derby where moving the boundary would be sensible but hasn't happened:
sf.png
We were arguing for years to get M65 J6 moved into Blackburn with Darwen so a motorway junction that forms a critical link to the town would be within its boundaries - including bringing a short section of Blackburn's northern bypass under Blackburn's control, but it was resisted because the retail park that falls into Hyndburn generates some juicy business rates.

These sort of issues must be common place.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by WHBM » Fri Jun 18, 2021 14:31

Classic example was Heathrow Terminal 4; previously little-used land, just for aircraft parking, etc, the boundary between the London Borough of Hillingdon and Surrey ran through the middle. Proposals to bring it all within one authority inevitably lead to legal cases by the other, because of the loss ob business rates income, and central government has to intervene. In this case the rest of the airport was in London so it was logical to move the boundary to along the perimeter road.

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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by Isleworth1961 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 14:54

WHBM wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 14:31
Classic example was Heathrow Terminal 4; previously little-used land, just for aircraft parking, etc, the boundary between the London Borough of Hillingdon and Surrey ran through the middle. Proposals to bring it all within one authority inevitably lead to legal cases by the other, because of the loss ob business rates income, and central government has to intervene. In this case the rest of the airport was in London so it was logical to move the boundary to along the perimeter road.
The boundary in that area originally followed the course of the Duke of Northumberland's river. That was diverted when the airport was completed post war, but the boundary continued to cross the airport. The Perimeter Road was built later, closely following the route of the river, and as you say, that's now the route of the boundary.
What I find interesting is that many addresses within the airport come under Hounslow, while not being within the LB of Hounslow.

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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by Piatkow » Fri Jun 18, 2021 15:46

Isleworth1961 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 14:54

What I find interesting is that many addresses within the airport come under Hounslow, while not being within the LB of Hounslow.
Royal Mail have always based addresses on the practicalities of delivery not on arbitary local authority boundaries. I know of cases both in Bucks and Essex where the post town is in a different historic county. This does cause some local upset at times where the post town is perceived to be appreciably more down market than its hinterland.

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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by Chris Bertram » Fri Jun 18, 2021 17:02

WHBM wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 14:31
Classic example was Heathrow Terminal 4; previously little-used land, just for aircraft parking, etc, the boundary between the London Borough of Hillingdon and Surrey ran through the middle. Proposals to bring it all within one authority inevitably lead to legal cases by the other, because of the loss ob business rates income, and central government has to intervene. In this case the rest of the airport was in London so it was logical to move the boundary to along the perimeter road.
Birmingham Airport also formerly had a borough boundary running across it, this has now been adjusted, and ironically the entire airport is now in the borough of Solihull :D
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by WHBM » Fri Jun 18, 2021 17:49

Piatkow wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 15:46
Royal Mail have always based addresses on the practicalities of delivery not on arbitary local authority boundaries. I know of cases both in Bucks and Essex where the post town is in a different historic county. This does cause some local upset at times where the post town is perceived to be appreciably more down market than its hinterland.
The post codes are indeed based on postal delivery offices - how else ? This did lead to a long-running issue with Windsor Castle, let alone the town, with a postcode of SL4 and an address of Windsor, SLOUGH.

This one rolled on until 1992, when there was the huge fire at the castle. It was controlled in the first 30 minutes not so much by the Windsor fire engine, just one, but by the East Berkshire central fire station in ... Slough. Not a lot was heard from the castle against Slough after that.

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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by crb11 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 18:31

Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 14:21

We were arguing for years to get M65 J6 moved into Blackburn with Darwen so a motorway junction that forms a critical link to the town would be within its boundaries - including bringing a short section of Blackburn's northern bypass under Blackburn's control, but it was resisted because the retail park that falls into Hyndburn generates some juicy business rates.

These sort of issues must be common place.
Yes, another example is the Cambridge/South Cambs boundary near the A14, where there have been various proposals to tidy it up for at least twenty years, but South Cambs have consistently vetoed any change, not wanting to lose income from the Science Park (and their half of the neighbouring St Johns Innovation Park, where the border goes straight through some of the buildings). The city border could do with review elsewhere as well - Eddington is part-in and part-out, and there are chunks of Cherry Hinton and Trumpington which have spilled out of the city too.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by vlad » Fri Jun 18, 2021 20:30

Chris Bertram wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 17:02
WHBM wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 14:31
Classic example was Heathrow Terminal 4; previously little-used land, just for aircraft parking, etc, the boundary between the London Borough of Hillingdon and Surrey ran through the middle. Proposals to bring it all within one authority inevitably lead to legal cases by the other, because of the loss ob business rates income, and central government has to intervene. In this case the rest of the airport was in London so it was logical to move the boundary to along the perimeter road.
Birmingham Airport also formerly had a borough boundary running across it, this has now been adjusted, and ironically the entire airport is now in the borough of Solihull :D
On the other hand, Manchester Airport was at one time entirely within that city (although AIUI it was only moved there in 1974). Then they built runway 2, which extends into what is now Cheshire East as as the administrative boundary hasn't moved!
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by Piatkow » Sat Jun 19, 2021 16:40

WHBM wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 17:49
Piatkow wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 15:46
Royal Mail have always based addresses on the practicalities of delivery not on arbitary local authority boundaries. I know of cases both in Bucks and Essex where the post town is in a different historic county. This does cause some local upset at times where the post town is perceived to be appreciably more down market than its hinterland.
The post codes are indeed based on postal delivery offices - how else ? This did lead to a long-running issue with Windsor Castle, let alone the town, with a postcode of SL4 and an address of Windsor, SLOUGH.

This one rolled on until 1992, when there was the huge fire at the castle. It was controlled in the first 30 minutes not so much by the Windsor fire engine, just one, but by the East Berkshire central fire station in ... Slough. Not a lot was heard from the castle against Slough after that.
When they moved Slough from Bucks to Berks it created a whole string of anomalies including having the boys' and girls' grammar schools under different education authorities. Differences in admission policy caused issues under Equal Opportunities legislation. Slough residents have special dispensation to use their local recycling centre which is also on the wrong side of the border.

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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by Sunil_of_Yoxley » Sat Jun 19, 2021 23:11

Piatkow wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 15:46
Isleworth1961 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 14:54

What I find interesting is that many addresses within the airport come under Hounslow, while not being within the LB of Hounslow.
Royal Mail have always based addresses on the practicalities of delivery not on arbitary local authority boundaries. I know of cases both in Bucks and Essex where the post town is in a different historic county. This does cause some local upset at times where the post town is perceived to be appreciably more down market than its hinterland.
Actual postal "counties" haven't been used by RM since 1996.

So I can get away with being in Ilford, as opposed to "Ilford, ESSEX".
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by WHBM » Sat Jun 19, 2021 23:12

Piatkow wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 16:40
When they moved Slough from Bucks to Berks it created a whole string of anomalies including having the boys' and girls' grammar schools under different education authorities. Differences in admission policy caused issues under Equal Opportunities legislation. Slough residents have special dispensation to use their local recycling centre which is also on the wrong side of the border.
It is an inconsistency. Slough is pretty much surrounded right at the edge of its built up area by Bucks on three sides, the A4 to Maidenhead runs through a salient of this just past the Trading estate. The M4 between the M25 and Maidenhead slaloms between London, Bucks (twice), Surrey and unitary Slough in former Berkshire. Good thing it's not a county responsibility. Adjacent Colnbrook and area is even more of an exclave, connected with the rest of Slough by one road. Although Slough had far more relationship with Reading than with Aylesbury as county towns, a local belief is that the 1974 change was engineered by Bucks to get rid of the opposite-voting town from their council.

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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by Piatkow » Sat Jun 19, 2021 23:47

Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 23:11
Piatkow wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 15:46
Isleworth1961 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 14:54

What I find interesting is that many addresses within the airport come under Hounslow, while not being within the LB of Hounslow.
Royal Mail have always based addresses on the practicalities of delivery not on arbitary local authority boundaries. I know of cases both in Bucks and Essex where the post town is in a different historic county. This does cause some local upset at times where the post town is perceived to be appreciably more down market than its hinterland.
Actual postal "counties" haven't been used by RM since 1996.

So I can get away with being in Ilford, as opposed to "Ilford, ESSEX".
It always annoys me when online forms force me to enter a county name as part of my postal address.

A lot of people are still convinced that it is required though. Just before I retired a couple of years ago I had a "discussion" about the matter with a colleague. She complained that I never included the county when passing over contact addresses and insisted that I was wrong when I said it was redundant.

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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary

Post by trickstat » Sun Jun 20, 2021 09:23

Piatkow wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 23:47
Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 23:11
Piatkow wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 15:46


Royal Mail have always based addresses on the practicalities of delivery not on arbitary local authority boundaries. I know of cases both in Bucks and Essex where the post town is in a different historic county. This does cause some local upset at times where the post town is perceived to be appreciably more down market than its hinterland.
Actual postal "counties" haven't been used by RM since 1996.

So I can get away with being in Ilford, as opposed to "Ilford, ESSEX".
It always annoys me when online forms force me to enter a county name as part of my postal address.

A lot of people are still convinced that it is required though. Just before I retired a couple of years ago I had a "discussion" about the matter with a colleague. She complained that I never included the county when passing over contact addresses and insisted that I was wrong when I said it was redundant.
In certain instances it is redundant as long as you include the postcode. There might be more than one example of "5 High Street" in some of the various postal towns of Ashford, Newport, Richmond, for example.

One advantage of not including counties is avoiding the awkwardness of addresses that are actually in one county but have a postal town in another county. For instance, Henlow, Hitchin, Herts, when Henlow is in Bedfordshire.

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