London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

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Bryn666
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

Post by Bryn666 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 09:13

Herned wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 09:10
c2R wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 15:08
I think more work will be done from home, and when people need to go to work, they'll summon an electric autonomous vehicle to come and get them to take them. It'll then either go away and wait for them at a charging station if it's their vehicle, or it'll go back to a pool of vehicles ready to be used by the next person if not.

This future definitely isn't to everyone's taste, but bit by bit I see us ending up there.
I can clearly remember when all the hype around autonomous vehicles started, with their predictions that 2020 would be the year they were widely available. It seems to me that the problems of autonomous vehicles are no nearer to being solved now than 5 years ago
Autonomous vehicles really are just a wet dream of tech wonks truth be told. The technology to deal with a crowded urban high street is decades away, if ever.

What will end up happening is incapable AVs will be dumped into the network and the panic reaction will be to further marginalise pedestrians and cyclists rather than ask why unsuitable giant metal boxes are driving around high streets.
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WHBM
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

Post by WHBM » Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:53

trickstat wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 08:19
I think that perhaps there ought to be an exemption for something like this for schools, NHS, charities subject to a limit on mileage.
Well there are all sorts of groups wanting exemptions. Most of them with not much money. There is the "scrappage scheme", https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra- ... age-scheme which seems to disqualify just about anybody who might have a mid-life car while paying London property prices. I also read it's typical TfL, you can only apply by email and those doing so are not being responded to.

It's a pure money-making scheme. It also seems to have been pushed along in a "me first" race with some boroughs wanting to do the same, who were also salivating at the prospect of some additional revenue to squander, while doing blow all for it, and dressing it up as greenwash. There's a belief locally that if Khan wins the election he will be back with Congestion Charge out to the Circulars, and ULEZ will be extended to any/all vehicles which are not electric.

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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

Post by avtur » Sat Apr 17, 2021 13:09

Bryn666 wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 13:48
WHBM wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 13:45
Bryn666 wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 09:42
Yes, but the general point is "I can't do..." is never really much more than "I won't do". If there's an alternative people will soon find and make use of it.
Unfortunately this fine democratic concept never seems to apply in reverse; if I find the alternative of driving from home to the North-West say is better, and make use of it, the Woke Lot will be immediately up in arms that I should be priced out of doing so because there is supposedly an "adequate" train.
It would be easier to take your arguments seriously if you didn't use cliches like "Woke Lot". We're supposed to be engineering and transport professionals, not Daily Mail journalists.
Excuse me, but isn't there an element of pot, kettle, black in your comment ...

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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

Post by ravenbluemoon » Sat Apr 17, 2021 17:15

Just a friendly SMT reminder that although we encourage discussion and debate, we do not tolerate things getting personal or name calling with regards to certain people or groups.

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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

Post by Scratchwood » Sat Apr 17, 2021 18:17

WHBM wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 01:13
Scratchwood wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 20:17
the former is a levy only levied on dirty vehicles, designed to make people change to cleaner vehicles, not stop driving altogether. In reality it's a "dirty diesel" tax, due to the serious air quality problems caused by the growth in diesel vehicle use
Possibly you could explain to our school how their two Ford Transit minibuses, both (just) pre-current regs and based here in Tower Hamlets, only used normally to take the kids to the swimming pool and back, now it seems have to be replaced at considerable cost., or pay £125 a week.
It's the effect of diesel particulates on children and schools which is one of the drivers of removing older diesels. And there are exemptions including for non-profit organisations
https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra- ... exemptions
Minibuses used for community transport
Many not-for-profit organisations that operate minibuses used for community transport in the ULEZ, can register for a limited time period where their vehicle will not to be charged.

The Mayor of London recognises that expanding the Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ), will impact minibuses that are used for community transport. These are minibuses that carry passengers on a not-for-profit basis. For example, for educational, religious, social welfare or other activities that benefit the community.

The grace period where you will not be charged will be from 25 October 2021 when the ULEZ is expanded, to the 29 October 2023. Before and after those dates all minibuses will need to meet the ULEZ emissions standards or pay the daily ULEZ charge.

You can register your minibus now.

Check if your organisation is eligible
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fras
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

Post by fras » Sat Apr 17, 2021 22:20

Herned wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 09:10
c2R wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 15:08
I think more work will be done from home, and when people need to go to work, they'll summon an electric autonomous vehicle to come and get them to take them. It'll then either go away and wait for them at a charging station if it's their vehicle, or it'll go back to a pool of vehicles ready to be used by the next person if not.

This future definitely isn't to everyone's taste, but bit by bit I see us ending up there.
I can clearly remember when all the hype around autonomous vehicles started, with their predictions that 2020 would be the year they were widely available. It seems to me that the problems of autonomous vehicles are no nearer to being solved now than 5 years ago
Or in the next 100 years !

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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

Post by c2R » Sun Apr 18, 2021 09:41

fras wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 22:20
Herned wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 09:10
c2R wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 15:08
I think more work will be done from home, and when people need to go to work, they'll summon an electric autonomous vehicle to come and get them to take them. It'll then either go away and wait for them at a charging station if it's their vehicle, or it'll go back to a pool of vehicles ready to be used by the next person if not.

This future definitely isn't to everyone's taste, but bit by bit I see us ending up there.
I can clearly remember when all the hype around autonomous vehicles started, with their predictions that 2020 would be the year they were widely available. It seems to me that the problems of autonomous vehicles are no nearer to being solved now than 5 years ago
Or in the next 100 years !
I diagree - think about the technology improvements in the last 100 years. Faster processing times communication rates, and camera resolution, satellite imagery of the entire world (to the point that I can see on google's latest coverage the individual stepping stone slabs on my garden path). Perhaps I will be proven wrong, and I can't say that I like taking the human factor out of driving on a personal level - but I don't think it's an unrealistic vision of the future...
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

Post by Herned » Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:29

c2R wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 09:41
I diagree - think about the technology improvements in the last 100 years. Faster processing times communication rates, and camera resolution, satellite imagery of the entire world (to the point that I can see on google's latest coverage the individual stepping stone slabs on my garden path). Perhaps I will be proven wrong, and I can't say that I like taking the human factor out of driving on a personal level - but I don't think it's an unrealistic vision of the future...
The individual paving stones come from planes, not satellites. There could be a fleet of drones, constantly mapping but there are serious privacy issues with that.

The technical problems are mostly soluble, although the last 5/10% of those will be the hardest. I wonder how much consideration Google or whoever have given to passing horses on a single track country lane for example. The ethical and liability issues are nowhere near solved either

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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

Post by WHBM » Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:41

School (excluding private schools)
What an overtly political move by TfL. Even Tower Hamlets council have never stooped to that.

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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

Post by RichardA35 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 18:55

WHBM wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:41
School (excluding private schools)
What an overtly political move by TfL. Even Tower Hamlets council have never stooped to that.
However as most privately run (commonly "Public") schools are registered charities, they will be able to take advantage of the exemption in the line above the one quoted. If they do not provide any public benefit, however, they will not be a charity but a business and rightly not exempt.

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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

Post by Micro The Maniac » Sun Apr 18, 2021 20:19

RichardA35 wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 18:55
However as most privately run (commonly "Public") schools are registered charities, they will be able to take advantage of the exemption in the line above the one quoted. If they do not provide any public benefit, however, they will not be a charity but a business and rightly not exempt.
It could be argued that a "public school" has a much more charitable objective ("education of children") than many of the pseudo-charities that have popped up in recent years. Particularly many of those who rely on Government handouts.

I'd like to see a fairly fundamental review of what is, and is not, a charity - and (in particular) put stringent caps on salaries of "executives".

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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

Post by thatapanydude » Wed Jul 28, 2021 21:44

Rather than an expansion its more like a contraction in operation hours plus the reinstatement of the 90% resident discount !!

Anyway TfL are "hopefully" going to cut back the CC hours back to 7am to 6pm on Mon-Fri like the old days, keep the £15 charge but in the bad news keep the operation hours on Sat and Sun though reducing it to only 12 to 6pm.

My views as someone who stays in C.London near Old Street a fair bit its that is a good step and a bit better than I hoped. Given the weekday hours will finish at 6pm it will definitely entice people working in the city to drive back to the office for those working longer hours e.g. banking or law. My only gripe and reason not to support the proposals in the consultation was that charges would remain on Sunday's and Bank Holiday's - which quite frankly is not needed considering the lack of much congestion and mediocre (vs Weekday and Saturday) public transport options.

Here is a link to the conultation: https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/congesti ... ge-changes
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

Post by WHBM » Wed Jul 28, 2021 23:06

Very notable nowadays is considerable parking congestion in evenings and especially weekends immediately outside the CC zone. Tower Hamlets east of Tower Bridge is particularly impacted around St Katherine's Dock, where the weekday residents parking controls 0800-1800 were free evenings and weekends.

Sundays were traditionally more congested than Saturdays here. One recurrent issue is road closures for all sorts of weekend sporting events, which increasingly just seem to be advertising opportunities for the sponsors. London Triathlon in 10 days time cuts the whole place off for the weekend.

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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

Post by thatapanydude » Thu Jul 29, 2021 13:28

WHBM wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 23:06
Very notable nowadays is considerable parking congestion in evenings and especially weekends immediately outside the CC zone. Tower Hamlets east of Tower Bridge is particularly impacted around St Katherine's Dock, where the weekday residents parking controls 0800-1800 were free evenings and weekends.

Sundays were traditionally more congested than Saturdays here.
In our area its mainly Fri and Sat nights that parking is a nightmare being on the footsteps of the now party scene in Shoreditch. Hopefully some will now look to park within the CC zone, a far bit of spaces are around towards Finsbury Square and Broadgate which will be back in use.

Our area was similar in being Mon-Fri 9am to 7pm and some Sunday restrictions for the Brick Lane market. Though Tower Hamlets changed it in the last year or so to near enough 24hr resident restrictions which has helped ease the parking issues.
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

Post by WHBM » Thu Jul 29, 2021 17:02

thatapanydude wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 13:28
Though Tower Hamlets changed it in the last year or so to near enough 24hr resident restrictions which has helped ease the parking issues.
A new approach seems to be, having previously set up residents bays and charged substantial sums for permits, to now convert these bays to shared parking, usable by both residents with permit and casual parking on pay by phone. This leads to residents coming back to their designated parking zone and finding bays full of casual parkers who have paid.

Real double dipping by the council for money.

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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

Post by fras » Thu Jul 29, 2021 20:04

Bryn666 wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 09:13
Herned wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 09:10
c2R wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 15:08
I think more work will be done from home, and when people need to go to work, they'll summon an electric autonomous vehicle to come and get them to take them. It'll then either go away and wait for them at a charging station if it's their vehicle, or it'll go back to a pool of vehicles ready to be used by the next person if not.

This future definitely isn't to everyone's taste, but bit by bit I see us ending up there.
I can clearly remember when all the hype around autonomous vehicles started, with their predictions that 2020 would be the year they were widely available. It seems to me that the problems of autonomous vehicles are no nearer to being solved now than 5 years ago
Autonomous vehicles really are just a wet dream of tech wonks truth be told. The technology to deal with a crowded urban high street is decades away, if ever.

What will end up happening is incapable AVs will be dumped into the network and the panic reaction will be to further marginalise pedestrians and cyclists rather than ask why unsuitable giant metal boxes are driving around high streets.
+1
I'm thinking of "The Emperor has no clothes on" story here.

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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

Post by Vierwielen » Thu Jul 29, 2021 22:42

c2R wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 09:41
I disagree - think about the technology improvements in the last 100 years. Faster processing times communication rates, and camera resolution, satellite imagery of the entire world (to the point that I can see on google's latest coverage the individual stepping stone slabs on my garden path). Perhaps I will be proven wrong, and I can't say that I like taking the human factor out of driving on a personal level - but I don't think it's an unrealistic vision of the future...
On the older versions of Google Earth , I was able to measure the size of my property; I could also see that on the day the satellite took a picture of my house, I was loading my car with branches etc to take then to the tip. On the newest version, this level of detail is not available.

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