The Dutch influence on UK road design

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Herned
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by Herned » Thu Jul 22, 2021 22:38

The government of the Netherlands report (2018) says cycling has a modal share of 27% of all journeys, with cars being used for 47% of all journeys.

The equivalent data for the UK shows cars have a modal share of 61%, cycling has a 2% share of journeys

So no, car use is significantly lower in the Netherlands, as a proportion of all journeys

marconaf
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by marconaf » Thu Jul 22, 2021 23:43

Herned wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 22:38
The government of the Netherlands report (2018) says cycling has a modal share of 27% of all journeys, with cars being used for 47% of all journeys.

The equivalent data for the UK shows cars have a modal share of 61%, cycling has a 2% share of journeys

So no, car use is significantly lower in the Netherlands, as a proportion of all journeys
Are those shares in the same units? journeys or pssenger miles for instance? (On a mobile and cant view the reports!), ie is this an apples and apples comparison?

Plus isn’t cycling there rather easily explained by flatness and greater urban density, ie. shorter trips are easier, and the infra doesn’t need to be as extensive. The Netherlands doesnt seem a good comparison.

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jackal
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by jackal » Fri Jul 23, 2021 00:09

marconaf wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 23:43
Herned wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 22:38
The government of the Netherlands report (2018) says cycling has a modal share of 27% of all journeys, with cars being used for 47% of all journeys.

The equivalent data for the UK shows cars have a modal share of 61%, cycling has a 2% share of journeys

So no, car use is significantly lower in the Netherlands, as a proportion of all journeys
Are those shares in the same units? journeys or pssenger miles for instance? (On a mobile and cant view the reports!), ie is this an apples and apples comparison?
Different methodologies, measuring different things, and therefore completely non-comparable - not to mention that the UK link goes to scores of different tables with no indication which the cited data is from.

I already posted the Statistical Office of the European Union (Eurostat) data, which uses a common methodology and is intended for cross-country comparison: https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps ... ab-chart_1

This statistically valid comparison shows cars have a higher modal share in the Netherlands than they do in the UK.

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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by Herned » Fri Jul 23, 2021 00:34

jackal wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 00:09
Different methodologies, measuring different things, and therefore completely non-comparable - not to mention that the UK link goes to scores of different tables with no indication which the cited data is from.

I already posted the Statistical Office of the European Union (Eurostat) data, which uses a common methodology and is intended for cross-country comparison: https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps ... ab-chart_1

This statistically valid comparison shows cars have a higher modal share in the Netherlands than they do in the UK.
Possibly slightly different methodology but not by enough to discount it entirely. The UK numbers I used to compare were those for total journeys only, the first data set (TSGB0103)

The chart in your link only compares cars, buses and trains. So missing any journeys not using those modes. Therefore I'm not sure what the relevance of it is to any discussion around cycling

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jackal
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by jackal » Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:56

Herned wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 00:34
jackal wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 00:09
Different methodologies, measuring different things, and therefore completely non-comparable - not to mention that the UK link goes to scores of different tables with no indication which the cited data is from.

I already posted the Statistical Office of the European Union (Eurostat) data, which uses a common methodology and is intended for cross-country comparison: https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps ... ab-chart_1

This statistically valid comparison shows cars have a higher modal share in the Netherlands than they do in the UK.
Possibly slightly different methodology but not by enough to discount it entirely. The UK numbers I used to compare were those for total journeys only, the first data set (TSGB0103)

The chart in your link only compares cars, buses and trains. So missing any journeys not using those modes. Therefore I'm not sure what the relevance of it is to any discussion around cycling
Thanks, that's helpful. But still, where are you getting UK numbers for cars? There are only rows for cars and vans combined ("car/van") in your table, whereas the Dutch number is for cars. So your UK "car" % is inflated.

I note as well that the Dutch report does not distinguish car passengers and drivers - more on this below.

A lot of this is explained by the Dutch "report" being a glossy brochure, issued pretty much expressly to make Dutch cycling (and by extension the responsible department) look as good as possible for political reasons. Note how it leaves out the much more useful measure of km travelled per mode. Congestion and CO2 scale with journey length so that's really the relevant thing - per trip is mostly a marketing exercise designed to make politicians everywhere look like they're doing more than they are.

I found this report that gives richer Dutch data. The per trip data is similar to that from the glossy brochure, but with more detail (driver versus passenger). But the really useful thing is the km data:

50% car as driver
19% car as passenger
12% train
3% bus/tram/metro
8% cycling
2% walking
6% other

Now, with various caveats (some mentioned above), the "equivalent" UK data from TSGB0103 suggests:

49% car/van driver
28% car/van passenger
10% surface rail
6% buses and London underground
1% cycling
3% walking
4% other (motorcycle, other private transport, taxi/minicab, other public transport)

There are a few curiosities, like a different split between train versus bus/metro in the two countries, though the overall level of public transport use is similar.

In both countries the dominant mode, at around 50%, is driving a car. It is slightly higher in the Netherlands than the UK, and it would be higher still if vans were included, as they are in the UK numbers. (Note that the "other" category is higher for the Netherlands than the UK, most likely because it includes vans for the former but not the latter.)

Though still only at 8%, there certainly is much more cycling in the Netherlands. Which mode is this at the expense of? By the look of it, car passengers! Seemingly car pooling is much more pervasive in the UK than the Netherlands.

So I will revise my account of the Dutch model to say that it involves a modal shift from car pooling to cycling. No decrease in congestion or CO2, but people would certainly be fitter.

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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by ais523 » Sat Jul 24, 2021 04:36

Big L wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 18:18
Discourage people from driving into the city by providing reliable public transport. Bus lanes would help that.
From experience with the bus route in question, the bus lane is in the wrong place; there are bottlenecks on the route (that can slow the bus down quite dramatically) but that stretch of the A38 isn't one of them. It would have been more beneficial for cyclists than for actual buses.

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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by Herned » Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:56

jackal wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:56
Note how it leaves out the much more useful measure of km travelled per mode. Congestion and CO2 scale with journey length so that's really the relevant thing - per trip is mostly a marketing exercise designed to make politicians everywhere look like they're doing more than they are.
Thanks for researching further, however I'm not sure that you can argue that congestion scales with journey length. CO2 obviously does, but surely congestion is at least as much down to people making short trips - look at the difference in any town when the schools are on holiday for example. Getting the short journeys done by other means than cars will have the biggest impact on congestion IMO

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jackal
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by jackal » Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:19

Well, the fact x scales with y doesn't mean it's a completely linear relationship. Even so, a longer journey will typically cause more congestion than a shorter one. That's even true in your school example - the parents driving from the other side of town are contributing the same amount of congestion at the school gates, but much more elsewhere, than the parents that live round the corner.

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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by Nwallace » Sat Jul 31, 2021 01:02

Having gone to a Dutch school with my mate to drop off / collect the kids, I could count the number of people driving their kids to school on one hand.
Same goes for shopping.

Longer journeys and where bike-train-bike doesn't work.
Theres another critical difference in the Netherlands for commuting to work too, you are paid public transport rates to commute there.

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Jim606
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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by Jim606 » Sun Aug 01, 2021 18:33

Nwallace wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 01:02
Having gone to a Dutch school with my mate to drop off / collect the kids, I could count the number of people driving their kids to school on one hand. Same goes for shopping. Longer journeys and where bike-train-bike doesn't work.
There's another critical difference in the Netherlands for commuting to work too, you are paid public transport rates to commute there. Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
I am sure there are bus / train discount schemes in the UK for travel to schools, colleges and other places? Plus, there are the excellent 'Cycle2Work' bike discount schemes. I know I am currently paying for my electric commuter bike via one. What is a problem though in this country is the lack of investment in cycle facilities. The Dutch like to make things easy. The primary school my children attended was notorious for pick-up / drop-off congestion. Essex CC mantra is 'oh just cycle to school', but the pavement between the school fence and barriers is only a 1meter wide, if that, forcing parents and children to walk in the road. Nobody ever seems to question such appalling design. How can mass cycling happen without creating the right conditions in the first place?
Gfr.JPG

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Re: The Dutch influence on UK road design

Post by Nwallace » Mon Aug 02, 2021 01:27

It's beyond making it easy in NL, they make it easier to ride than driving for short to medium journeys and easier even than walking.

Travel discount schemes is not the same as being given 100% of the rail/bus fare.
Considering the state of the average oma/opa fiets is barely road legal, not much of that is then spent on the actual transport used.

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