A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

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fras
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Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by fras » Fri Jan 15, 2021 13:15

jackal wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:31
A tolled M67 is an interesting thought. There would be such a dramatic difference in journey time between Manchester and Sheffield (and points beyond) that it might work rather better than the M6toll, for instance, which is a minor time saving at most times of day. I would be all in favour assuming it was privately funded - which, alas, is extremely unlikely.
After the M6 Toll debacle, I can't see private funding stepping up to build what would be a very expensive road across the Pennines. The problem is that private money wants a quick return, but a tolled road needs to have reasonable tolls to encourage use, therefor the assumption has to be that decades will elapse before the capital is paid off and a reasonable return provided in the interim.

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jackal
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Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by jackal » Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:57

The scheme was accepted for examination a few days ago: https://infrastructure.planninginspecto ... n=overview

Layout: https://infrastructure.planninginspecto ... ayouts.pdf

I think the hamburger is a recent addition.

RickyB_uk
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Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by RickyB_uk » Fri Jul 30, 2021 21:08

Bryn666 wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 21:37
Also the Alps aren't peat bogs, they're solid rock formations so easy to tunnel through.
Only the top couple of metres is peat bog though. Most of the rock underneath is a coarse hard gritstone that should be tunnel-able through.

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Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by Peter Freeman » Sun Aug 01, 2021 01:06

Well, whad'ya know? It has the obligatory hamburger! But it's still a motorway ending at a roundabout.

Still, this is actually a good little scheme. It has a very limited objective, and a timetable, is relatively low cost, is achievable, already has momentum, and AFAIK has no opposition. Two major northern cities and a couple of villages will gain at least some minor benefit during the next twenty years - during which time the tunnel idea is debated, haggled about, and agonised over, before eventually being stuffed into the already overflowing too-hard basket.
Last edited by Peter Freeman on Sun Aug 01, 2021 13:45, edited 1 time in total.

Hdeng16
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Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by Hdeng16 » Sun Aug 01, 2021 08:14

It’s one of the more acceptable hamburger junctions for sure. We were never going to get a GSJ and with that in mind the cut through is welcome given the size of the roundabout

Conekicker
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Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by Conekicker » Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:02

jackal wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:57
The scheme was accepted for examination a few days ago: https://infrastructure.planninginspecto ... n=overview

Layout: https://infrastructure.planninginspecto ... ayouts.pdf

I think the hamburger is a recent addition.
What a very user-unfriendly PDF.

On the westbound approach to the hamburger I note we have the bog-standard clueless application of road markings - a double headed arrow with associated route numbers.

Do any of the HE's contractors have any clue as to what TSRGD permits? TSRGD S11-4-19 refers. Presumably the final design of road markings and signs will get the usual check to ensure it complies with TSRGD, i.e. no check at all.
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.

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Bryn666
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Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by Bryn666 » Sun Aug 01, 2021 17:28

Conekicker wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:02
jackal wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:57
The scheme was accepted for examination a few days ago: https://infrastructure.planninginspecto ... n=overview

Layout: https://infrastructure.planninginspecto ... ayouts.pdf

I think the hamburger is a recent addition.
What a very user-unfriendly PDF.

On the westbound approach to the hamburger I note we have the bog-standard clueless application of road markings - a double headed arrow with associated route numbers.

Do any of the HE's contractors have any clue as to what TSRGD permits? TSRGD S11-4-19 refers. Presumably the final design of road markings and signs will get the usual check to ensure it complies with TSRGD, i.e. no check at all.
It's fascinating because if a third party wants to do anything on a trunk road they suddenly become meticulous in their application of standards.

Unaccountable dinosaur organisation. The sooner it's abolished the better.
Bryn
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Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by Phil » Sun Aug 01, 2021 17:38

Bryn666 wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 17:28


It's fascinating because if a third party wants to do anything on a trunk road they suddenly become meticulous in their application of standards.

Unaccountable dinosaur organisation. The sooner it's abolished the better.
With what? A trunk road network managed by G4S or Mitie perhaps.....

Most of the flaws are entirely due to the removal of engineering talent within the organisation in favour of outsourcing it. Somehow I don't see a free market loving, outsourcing / privatising Conservative Government doing much to fix that inherent flaw....

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Bryn666
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Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by Bryn666 » Sun Aug 01, 2021 17:43

Correct.

Well we'll just have to wait for their incompetence to result in a mass fatality event then won't we. Smart motorways probably should be a wake up call for them there.
Bryn
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Phil
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Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by Phil » Sun Aug 01, 2021 17:52

Bryn666 wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 17:43
Correct.

Well we'll just have to wait for their incompetence to result in a mass fatality event then won't we. Smart motorways probably should be a wake up call for them there.
Yeah right.....

How many people are still living in deathtraps 4 years after Grenfell because Leaseholders / developers are prioritising shareholders over tenants. How many times have G4S screwed up yet they still get given lucrative Government contracts on a regular basis....

You could have a mass fatality on a Smart Motorway and I bet nothing would fundamentally change.

Thats the beauty of outscoring / contracting out - there is always some other organisation to chuck the blame onto.

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jackal
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Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by jackal » Sun Aug 01, 2021 18:30

Hdeng16 wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 08:14
It’s one of the more acceptable hamburger junctions for sure. We were never going to get a GSJ and with that in mind the cut through is welcome given the size of the roundabout
Also it doesn't involve a bridge so is relatively cost-effective.

I am, however, concerned that the westbound approach is only two lanes, which is surely insufficient.

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Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by Hdeng16 » Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:47

jackal wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 18:30
Hdeng16 wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 08:14
It’s one of the more acceptable hamburger junctions for sure. We were never going to get a GSJ and with that in mind the cut through is welcome given the size of the roundabout
Also it doesn't involve a bridge so is relatively cost-effective.

I am, however, concerned that the westbound approach is only two lanes, which is surely insufficient.
That's just odd - While it's a much smaller flow, plenty turn for Stockport. Not sure why Hyde Road to the east needs to keep it's overly-flowing turn off the roundabout either so there is plenty of room for a 3rd (inside) lane for circulating traffic. Keep the 2 lanes separate for the major flow across the cut through.

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Bryn666
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Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by Bryn666 » Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:14

Hdeng16 wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:47
jackal wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 18:30
Hdeng16 wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 08:14
It’s one of the more acceptable hamburger junctions for sure. We were never going to get a GSJ and with that in mind the cut through is welcome given the size of the roundabout
Also it doesn't involve a bridge so is relatively cost-effective.

I am, however, concerned that the westbound approach is only two lanes, which is surely insufficient.
That's just odd - While it's a much smaller flow, plenty turn for Stockport. Not sure why Hyde Road to the east needs to keep it's overly-flowing turn off the roundabout either so there is plenty of room for a 3rd (inside) lane for circulating traffic. Keep the 2 lanes separate for the major flow across the cut through.
Agreed, if the old A57 is supposed to be traffic calmed then the best option is to actually remove the motorised traffic connection from the roundabout entirely. Otherwise a not insignificant volume will still use the old road as they'll come up from Broadbottom Road and turn left through old habits dying hard rather than loop around the new bypass.

Interestingly at least the old abandoned T-junction is still planned to remain.
Bryn
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jgharston
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Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by jgharston » Mon Aug 02, 2021 15:13

Is the intention to eventually continue eastwards? The plans show the new road slamming to a halt side on to Woolley Bridge Road. The junction is laid out such that if you're travelling from the south the natural progression of travel is to continue straight across the junction onto the old/current A57. Surely if the "through" route from the south is to go west onto the new road, the road layout should be such to naturally direct you that way, as in my recommendation for the Middlewood Bypass in Sheffield: link, link

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jackal
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Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by jackal » Mon Aug 02, 2021 15:59

jgharston wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 15:13
Is the intention to eventually continue eastwards? The plans show the new road slamming to a halt side on to Woolley Bridge Road. The junction is laid out such that if you're travelling from the south the natural progression of travel is to continue straight across the junction onto the old/current A57. Surely if the "through" route from the south is to go west onto the new road, the road layout should be such to naturally direct you that way, as in my recommendation for the Middlewood Bypass in Sheffield: link, link
The A57 Woolley Lane is busier than the A628. So it is set up for the main flow (A57-A57) to carry straight on. The trunk designation along the A628 is misleading in this respect.

There are no specific plans to extend the bypass. But the current plan is basically the western third of the 00s plan for a full Mottram-Tintwistle bypass, plus the A57 link road (in orange):

Current plan:

Image

00s plan:

Image

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Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by Peter Freeman » Mon Aug 02, 2021 16:20

Jackal, I think jgharston meant "get rid of the totso layout on sheet 6" ... ?

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jackal
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Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by jackal » Mon Aug 02, 2021 16:28

Ah yes, I misunderstood. Thanks for the clarification, and also to jgharston for a good point.

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Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by Peter Freeman » Mon Aug 02, 2021 17:08

Yes, the westbound approach to the roundabout should be 3 lanes, and perhaps also the cut-through, though it comes from only a 2-lane cross-roads further back. The old Hyde Road may as well stay connected Bryn: only a few locals will go along there, which is reasonable. As suggested up-thread, the eastern end of the project should be re-shaped to eliminate the totso - not difficult I'd think.

The reason for the minor shortcomings is that it's a budget project, intended to buy time - which is mainly why I like it. Apart from adding the cut-through, and splicing in the new road, the current roundabout is hardly touched. I'm well disposed to such cost-effective incremental improvements, as long as they're not torn up three years later and don't close off future options.

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