Leicester Eastern Bypass

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jackal
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Re: Leicester Eastern Bypass

Post by jackal » Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:03

The M5 J10 confusion was the other way round, i.e., they thought 'all movements' meant 'free flowing':
A junction is classified as ‘all movements’, or free-flowing, when all the turning movements through a junction occur on slip roads, with different streams of traffic merging as opposed to coming to a stop.
That could be the confusion here, i.e., they are trying to describe a limited access freeflow junction, which is the logical layout for J20A. But more likely I think they just haven't noticed that M69 to/from M1 north isn't needed. To be fair the description for the M69 J2 upgrade (and many other junctions in the document) show they know what freeflow is.
darkcape wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 22:59
So, my ear to the ground regarding Leicestershire highways pipeline:

M1 North-west Leicester Access: this placeholder project name seems to be an M1 J21 upgrade currently disguised, no physical work on the ground has taken place but options are being considered as a few local stakeholders have been contacted regarding bits & pieces e.g bridge demolitions, rights of way and so on.

We all known that M69-M1 North free-flowing is the only sensible option here but my fear is the scope might be squeezed e.g southbound-only free-flow mitigated by combined Smart Motorway.
An FOI confirms the scheme is looking at "the transport problems that exist on the M1 between J21 where the M1 connects to the M69
and J21a where it connects to A46. https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... .docx.html

I believe the last consultation in 2007 had two options - D4 DHS (which was experimental at the time) or D5M. Both provided freeflow northbound and southbound at J21. I think now it is bound to be D5 ALR. Northbound is already freeflow and doesn't need upgrade IMO, so freeflow southbound would be sufficient.

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Bryn666
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Re: Leicester Eastern Bypass

Post by Bryn666 » Mon Aug 02, 2021 13:08

jackal wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:03
The M5 J10 confusion was the other way round, i.e., they thought 'all movements' meant 'free flowing':
A junction is classified as ‘all movements’, or free-flowing, when all the turning movements through a junction occur on slip roads, with different streams of traffic merging as opposed to coming to a stop.
That could be the confusion here, i.e., they are trying to describe a limited access freeflow junction, which is the logical layout for J20A. But more likely I think they just haven't noticed that M69 to/from M1 north isn't needed. To be fair the description for the M69 J2 upgrade (and many other junctions in the document) show they know what freeflow is.
darkcape wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 22:59
So, my ear to the ground regarding Leicestershire highways pipeline:

M1 North-west Leicester Access: this placeholder project name seems to be an M1 J21 upgrade currently disguised, no physical work on the ground has taken place but options are being considered as a few local stakeholders have been contacted regarding bits & pieces e.g bridge demolitions, rights of way and so on.

We all known that M69-M1 North free-flowing is the only sensible option here but my fear is the scope might be squeezed e.g southbound-only free-flow mitigated by combined Smart Motorway.
An FOI confirms the scheme is looking at "the transport problems that exist on the M1 between J21 where the M1 connects to the M69
and J21a where it connects to A46. https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... .docx.html

I believe the last consultation in 2007 had two options - D4 DHS (which was experimental at the time) or D5M. Both provided freeflow northbound and southbound at J21. I think now it is bound to be D5 ALR. Northbound is already freeflow and doesn't need upgrade IMO, so freeflow southbound would be sufficient.
D5 ALR wouldn't work between J21 and J21A unless you demolish all the existing structures including the MSA, and if you're doing that you might as well just build a proper D5M anyway, or more sensibly, C/D roads. You're still going to need to demolish houses to do either around the A47 bridge.
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jackal
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Re: Leicester Eastern Bypass

Post by jackal » Mon Aug 02, 2021 15:23

Both options from 2007 included demolishing the services.

I agree D5M would be better, but when in the last decade have they gone for widening when ALR is an option?

Personally I'd want to see six lanes, which was proposed in 2006 - there were three options for D6M and one for D4M+D2M (which would be better). Midlands Connect want to widen A46 to three lanes, so together with M1 ALR that would mean you have 4+3 feeding onto this section of M1 from both directions. At five lanes it would still be a bottleneck.

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Re: Leicester Eastern Bypass

Post by jgharston » Mon Aug 02, 2021 16:03

There's an odd kink in the northbound carriageway of the M69 as it approaches the M1/j21. Was it originally planned to go in a different direction or under a bridge? There's a dead stub joining the southbound carriageway and the land between the carriageways does look a bit ski-ramp-y.

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Re: Leicester Eastern Bypass

Post by jgharston » Mon Aug 02, 2021 16:12

jgharston wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 16:03
There's an odd kink in the northbound carriageway of the M69 as it approaches the M1/j21. Was it originally planned to go in a different direction or under a bridge? There's a dead stub joining the southbound carriageway and the land between the carriageways does look a bit ski-ramp-y.
Replying to my own post, but yes, it was supposed to continue. Which also makes sense with junction numbers counting up northwards - though they are clockwise, should are "correct" for the zoning system.

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Re: Leicester Eastern Bypass

Post by ABB125 » Mon Aug 02, 2021 16:19

Are the previous M1 J21-21a upgrade plans available to see anywhere?

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jackal
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Re: Leicester Eastern Bypass

Post by jackal » Mon Aug 02, 2021 16:36

ABB125 wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 16:19
Are the previous M1 J21-21a upgrade plans available to see anywhere?
I downloaded them as recently as 2017, so I would guess they are still somewhere in the remains of the Highways Agency webpages. If not I can look into uploading (though they are several mb).

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Bryn666
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Re: Leicester Eastern Bypass

Post by Bryn666 » Mon Aug 02, 2021 17:00

jackal wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 15:23
Both options from 2007 included demolishing the services.

I agree D5M would be better, but when in the last decade have they gone for widening when ALR is an option?

Personally I'd want to see six lanes, which was proposed in 2006 - there were three options for D6M and one for D4M+D2M (which would be better). Midlands Connect want to widen A46 to three lanes, so together with M1 ALR that would mean you have 4+3 feeding onto this section of M1 from both directions. At five lanes it would still be a bottleneck.
My point exactly. We know that carriageways wider than four lanes are inefficient - this is why even the DMRB states anything wider than D4M is an automatic departure from standard. Quite why HE would even want to build a D5 ALR and call it an improvement is beyond me, given that to provide such a useless fudge they'd have to rebuild the entire motorway cross-section anyway.

Oh, that's exactly why they'd do it, like they just have with the M4 from J4B to J8/9.
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jackal
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Re: Leicester Eastern Bypass

Post by jackal » Mon Aug 02, 2021 17:11

jackal wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 16:36
ABB125 wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 16:19
Are the previous M1 J21-21a upgrade plans available to see anywhere?
I downloaded them as recently as 2017, so I would guess they are still somewhere in the remains of the Highways Agency webpages. If not I can look into uploading (though they are several mb).
I've put direct links to the plans in the appropriate thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38199&p=1199933#p1199933

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Re: Leicester Eastern Bypass

Post by ABB125 » Mon Aug 02, 2021 18:01

jackal wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 17:11
jackal wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 16:36
ABB125 wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 16:19
Are the previous M1 J21-21a upgrade plans available to see anywhere?
I downloaded them as recently as 2017, so I would guess they are still somewhere in the remains of the Highways Agency webpages. If not I can look into uploading (though they are several mb).
I've put direct links to the plans in the appropriate thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38199&p=1199933#p1199933
Thanks very much.

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Re: Leicester Eastern Bypass

Post by Chris5156 » Mon Aug 02, 2021 20:34

jackal wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 17:11
jackal wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 16:36
ABB125 wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 16:19
Are the previous M1 J21-21a upgrade plans available to see anywhere?
I downloaded them as recently as 2017, so I would guess they are still somewhere in the remains of the Highways Agency webpages. If not I can look into uploading (though they are several mb).
I've put direct links to the plans in the appropriate thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38199&p=1199933#p1199933
Oh, I don't remember seeing the D4+D2 option at the time, and it's glorious. A proper D2M making full use of the unfinished stumps of M69, splitting M1 traffic from M69/A46 movements and retaining access in all directions to the services. Any ALR widening scheme is going to seem very disappointing now I've seen that.

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Re: Leicester Eastern Bypass

Post by Bryn666 » Tue Aug 03, 2021 09:30

Chris5156 wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 20:34
jackal wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 17:11
jackal wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 16:36

I downloaded them as recently as 2017, so I would guess they are still somewhere in the remains of the Highways Agency webpages. If not I can look into uploading (though they are several mb).
I've put direct links to the plans in the appropriate thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38199&p=1199933#p1199933
Oh, I don't remember seeing the D4+D2 option at the time, and it's glorious. A proper D2M making full use of the unfinished stumps of M69, splitting M1 traffic from M69/A46 movements and retaining access in all directions to the services. Any ALR widening scheme is going to seem very disappointing now I've seen that.
My only suggestion would be that there should be a vertical retaining wall past LFE which would massively reduce the number of houses demolished for that. Possibly even a lid over the new carriageways. Again, if we're going to force roads past houses we need to mitigate their impact and do the job properly.
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jackal
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Re: Leicester Eastern Bypass

Post by jackal » Tue Aug 03, 2021 09:57

Yeah, it's pretty bizarre that option 4 used a wide cutting through a housing estate!

The 2006 designs assume hard shoulders on all carriageways. Nowadays this is considered an unnecessary luxury. You could actually fit D4ALR+D2 in the same landtake as D6M. So you can have a full C/D set up like option 4 but with landtake like option 3.

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Re: Leicester Eastern Bypass

Post by Micro The Maniac » Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:19

jackal wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 15:23
Personally I'd want to see six lanes, which was proposed in 2006 - there were three options for D6M and one for D4M+D2M (which would be better). Midlands Connect want to widen A46 to three lanes, so together with M1 ALR that would mean you have 4+3 feeding onto this section of M1 from both directions. At five lanes it would still be a bottleneck.
Surely better would be for a spur to head north of Thurslaston and Kirby Muxlow to join directly onto the end of the A46 (through J21a) - although that might be a squeeze?

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Re: Leicester Eastern Bypass

Post by jackal » Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:33

Micro The Maniac wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:19
jackal wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 15:23
Personally I'd want to see six lanes, which was proposed in 2006 - there were three options for D6M and one for D4M+D2M (which would be better). Midlands Connect want to widen A46 to three lanes, so together with M1 ALR that would mean you have 4+3 feeding onto this section of M1 from both directions. At five lanes it would still be a bottleneck.
Surely better would be for a spur to head north of Thurslaston and Kirby Muxlow to join directly onto the end of the A46 (through J21a) - although that might be a squeeze?
An interesting thought. Alternatively you could run an M1 bypass from south of J21 to north of Ratby, leaving the bypassed road for the M69, A46, and local movements. I suspect the amount of greenfield construction is unacceptable though.

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Re: Leicester Eastern Bypass

Post by Bryn666 » Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:41

jackal wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:33
Micro The Maniac wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:19
jackal wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 15:23
Personally I'd want to see six lanes, which was proposed in 2006 - there were three options for D6M and one for D4M+D2M (which would be better). Midlands Connect want to widen A46 to three lanes, so together with M1 ALR that would mean you have 4+3 feeding onto this section of M1 from both directions. At five lanes it would still be a bottleneck.
Surely better would be for a spur to head north of Thurslaston and Kirby Muxlow to join directly onto the end of the A46 (through J21a) - although that might be a squeeze?
An interesting thought. Alternatively you could run an M1 bypass from south of J21 to north of Ratby, leaving the bypassed road for the M69, A46, and local movements. I suspect the amount of greenfield construction is unacceptable though.
This is the irony isn't it - people are mega opposed to a road through greenfield (approx cross-section width, assuming generous earthworks, maybe 50-100m) yet see no issue with building a housing estate spanning several square kilometres.
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Re: Leicester Eastern Bypass

Post by darkcape » Tue Aug 03, 2021 23:25

People were opposed to the Lubbesthorpe development, but having fought off several other 'urban extensions', this one ended up going ahead. Famously my mum said she'd disown me if I ever worked on it!

I also remember as a kid going to the 2006 exhibitions at our local library. At the A47 bridge, apart from those in Option 4 the only building requiring demolition is a modern church - but Bryn has the right idea, lid the motorway through the cutting.

New Lubbesthorpe has spawned an access road across the M1 just north of J21 which is 'futureproofed' for an extra lane northbound & minor realignment southbound. There's also a bridge going across the M69 'mound' right where new link roads are required. The longer HE dither, the less options they will have available.

The M69 J3 slip is one of those that can be easily taken at 50mph but people take at 30mph. The same for the M1 J21 SB jet lane onto the A5460, which causes queues in peak times. The J21 NB entry slip from the roundabout is a short merge onto the mainline, this causes flow breakdown quickly. Putting in a northbound lane drop so both onslip lanes are lane-gains would be a short-term solution.
The J21a NB offslip could also do with a ghost-island exit so Lane 2 can also be used, that would ease some of the weaving caused by the services.

I don't have much hope when any options are eventually published.
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Re: Leicester Eastern Bypass

Post by jackal » Wed Aug 04, 2021 09:26

darkcape wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 23:25
New Lubbesthorpe has spawned an access road across the M1 just north of J21 which is 'futureproofed' for an extra lane northbound & minor realignment southbound.
From the edge of the HS it looks like there's about 5.5m to the bridge abutment northbound and 4.5m southbound (Google satellite). D5M, D6ALR, or D3+D2 would be quite possible through there but not D6M or D4+D2.
There's also a bridge going across the M69 'mound' right where new link roads are required.
Is that there already or planned? Surely HE will require substantial futureproofing given all versions of the design involved extra carriageways around there and the scheme has been around since RIS1.

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Re: Leicester Eastern Bypass

Post by darkcape » Wed Aug 04, 2021 23:20

The M69 bridge is planned but I believe its getting pushed to be accelerated as originally it was several years along the development construction programme. The planning application for the southern link to the bridge is currently being considered as part of the so-called Enderby Relief Road.

The developer will want to pay for the smallest bridges possible, so AIUI either HE demonstrate there are credible & progressive plans for M69-M1 links, or they pay the developer the extra cash to widen the bridges etc.
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