A303 Sparkford to Ilchester

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owen b
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Re: A303 Sparkford to Ilchester

Post by owen b » Tue Feb 09, 2021 23:22

Vierwielen wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 22:03
Herned wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 16:18
... snip ...

The sensible thing to do would be to renumber the road as the A303 all the way to the M5 at J25
This would really break the A30 into two parts and would achieve very little. At the moment the A30 multiplexes with the M5 for a relatively short distance.
:confused: I don't see how renumbering the A358 from Ilminster to M5 J25 as the A303 affects the A30. The A30 would presumably be unchanged, and a new number would be found for the present day A303 from Ilminster to the A30 turn north east of Honiton.
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Re: A303 Sparkford to Ilchester

Post by Herned » Tue Feb 09, 2021 23:29

Vierwielen wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 22:03
This would really break the A30 into two parts and would achieve very little. At the moment the A30 multiplexes with the M5 for a relatively short distance.
Firstly, how would renumbering the A358 to the A303 have any effect on the A30?

And more importantly, no one in the real world cares about the minutiae of road numbering as such, but having one road number for the route from the M5 to the M3 would make a lot of sense for those who don't just follow their sat navs

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Re: A303 Sparkford to Ilchester

Post by Micro The Maniac » Wed Feb 10, 2021 21:14

Herned wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 16:18
The sensible thing to do would be to renumber the road as the A303 all the way to the M5 at J25
That would split the A358 into two... Illminster south to the coast, and Taunton north to the coast.

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Dan Lockton
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Re: A303 Sparkford to Ilchester

Post by Dan Lockton » Wed Feb 10, 2021 21:23

Maybe the A30 Exeter to Honiton could become A35 — bringing back the original "Exeter to Southampton" route in name if not actual route!

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Re: A303 Sparkford to Ilchester

Post by Micro The Maniac » Wed Feb 10, 2021 21:27

Dan Lockton wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 21:23
Maybe the A30 Exeter to Honiton could become A35 — bringing back the original "Exeter to Southampton" route in name if not actual route!
But what would be the advantage of that? The A30 exists from Exeter to Land's End...

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Re: A303 Sparkford to Ilchester

Post by Dan Lockton » Wed Feb 10, 2021 21:48

Micro The Maniac wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 21:27
Dan Lockton wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 21:23
Maybe the A30 Exeter to Honiton could become A35 — bringing back the original "Exeter to Southampton" route in name if not actual route!
But what would be the advantage of that? The A30 exists from Exeter to Land's End...
I suppose I meant, if the dualled A358 to Taunton is renumbered A303, with the intention of discouraging London to Exeter traffic going through the Blackdowns, an additional component of that could be emphasising the Exeter–Honiton route as being primarily part of the south coast trunk road A35/A31, rather than part of the (current) A30/A303 route. A non-primary A30 from Honiton to Bullington Cross would be much less prominent on a map, and quite distinct from the prominent A30-as-trunk-road from Exeter to Penzance.

Not sure what the current A303 should be renumbered from Horton Cross to Upottery — if only "A3079" hadn't been reused!

Edit: This is what I meant
Last edited by Dan Lockton on Thu Feb 11, 2021 00:17, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: A303 Sparkford to Ilchester

Post by Herned » Wed Feb 10, 2021 21:55

Micro The Maniac wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 21:14
That would split the A358 into two... Illminster south to the coast, and Taunton north to the coast.
Does that matter in any way in the real world?

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Peter350
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Re: A303 Sparkford to Ilchester

Post by Peter350 » Wed Feb 10, 2021 23:31

In regards to renumbering, I would go a bit more radical and divert the A30 from Yeovil up the A3088 before multiplexing with the A303 between Cartgate and Horton Cross. While the A303 takes over the route of the A358 to the M5, the A30 carries on through the Blackdown Hills before rejoining its existing route at Devonshire House, removing that infamous TOTSO in the process!

Under this plan, the existing A30 between Yeovil (Watercombe Lane roundabout) and Upottery would become the A3089.

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Re: A303 Sparkford to Ilchester

Post by Micro The Maniac » Thu Feb 11, 2021 09:33

Peter350 wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 23:31
I would go a bit more radical and divert the A30 from Yeovil up the A3088 before multiplexing with the A303 between Cartgate and Horton Cross.
There is some merit in this....

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Re: A303 Sparkford to Ilchester

Post by Bryn666 » Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:22

Micro The Maniac wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 09:33
Peter350 wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 23:31
I would go a bit more radical and divert the A30 from Yeovil up the A3088 before multiplexing with the A303 between Cartgate and Horton Cross.
There is some merit in this....
Really the A30 should have been relocated on to what is now the A303 in 1935... then you'd only need to renumber the Blackdown Hills to Exeter section of this mythical alt-history A30 if you routed everything up to the M5.

Given Highways England pointlessly extended the A47, there's hope that some radical and sensible renumbering is possible in the future if they have the right motivation.
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jackal
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Re: A303 Sparkford to Ilchester

Post by jackal » Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:47

I'd send the A303 along the A358 to Taunton as others suggest. The 'gap' in the A358 is no problem at all - a multiplex is a common thing and a small price to pay for completing the M3 to M5 route. It will also prevent TOTSOs when Southfields is eventually GSJed.

The old A303 in the Blackdowns would get an A3xxx number. There is no advantage to making it A30 when the point is to encourage traffic to go via Taunton, not to mention the extreme expense and disruption of renumbering the A303, A358, A3088 and a huge length of A30.

Much more likely, though, the A358 will just be directed along the new road and the A303 and A30 will stay where they are.

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Re: A303 Sparkford to Ilchester

Post by Norfolktolancashire » Thu Feb 11, 2021 20:34

Vierwielen wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 22:07
Norfolktolancashire wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 21:17
I have a feeling that once the A358 is D2 between Ilminster and Taunton the A303 classification will take that section instead and the existing A303 between Ilminster and the A30 near Honiton will become a B road with a corresponding weight limit to remove HGV through traffic.

This would remove an obvious mainline route on satnavs and maps and reduce the maintenance costs on that section.
Where would you place the weight limit?
Between Ilminster and Honiton. The weight limit would exclude local traffic of course.

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Re: A303 Sparkford to Ilchester

Post by Bryn666 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:14

jackal wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:47
I'd send the A303 along the A358 to Taunton as others suggest. The 'gap' in the A358 is no problem at all - a multiplex is a common thing and a small price to pay for completing the M3 to M5 route. It will also prevent TOTSOs when Southfields is eventually GSJed.

The old A303 in the Blackdowns would get an A3xxx number. There is no advantage to making it A30 when the point is to encourage traffic to go via Taunton, not to mention the extreme expense and disruption of renumbering the A303, A358, A3088 and a huge length of A30.

Much more likely, though, the A358 will just be directed along the new road and the A303 and A30 will stay where they are.
Indeed, the A417/A419 is a classic example of the genre, or the A74(M)/M74/M6...
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Re: A303 Sparkford to Ilchester

Post by Vierwielen » Fri Feb 12, 2021 18:07

Norfolktolancashire wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 20:34
Vierwielen wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 22:07
Norfolktolancashire wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 21:17
I have a feeling that once the A358 is D2 between Ilminster and Taunton the A303 classification will take that section instead and the existing A303 between Ilminster and the A30 near Honiton will become a B road with a corresponding weight limit to remove HGV through traffic.

This would remove an obvious mainline route on satnavs and maps and reduce the maintenance costs on that section.
Where would you place the weight limit?
Between Ilminster and Honiton. The weight limit would exclude local traffic of course.
Policing it could be difficult, also the Ilminsiter-Honiton road would provide an emergency alternative should the Ilminster-Taunton road be blocked for any reason.

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jackal
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Re: A303 Sparkford to Ilchester

Post by jackal » Tue Jul 06, 2021 13:57

Main works start in September. There's a plan of construction phases here:

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/asse ... emnt+1.pdf

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Re: A303 Sparkford to Ilchester

Post by A303Chris » Wed Jul 21, 2021 09:34

There's a virtual exhibition on the construction phases this Thursday 22nd July 2021 and Friday 23rd
The M25 - The road to nowhere

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Re: A303 Sparkford to Ilchester

Post by solocle » Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:48

I sent them an email on Wednesday regarding some questions I had, but as yet no response.
I wrote: Hello, I have some questions about the Sparkford to Ilchester scheme as pertaining to NMUs.

The scheme consultation talks about NMUs crossing the A303 - a movement that I have made myself, and can be rather difficult.

However, there doesn't seem to be any recognition of NMUs, particularly cyclists, using the A303 itself.

Are there any proposed restrictions on such usage?

I note that there seems to be some network of "NMU route"s on your scheme overview map, including some proposed.

What will be the design standard of these routes?
Can you confirm that they do in fact form a coherent alternative route to the A303, as the map makes them look horribly disconnected?
Especially if you plan on imposing restrictions on the mainline A303, have you assessed the impact on journey time by using the NMU routes between Sparkford and Podimore?

Finally, I note in your statutory consultation that you predict vastly increased traffic levels beyond the scheme boundaries in the near term - no doubt further increasing. In particular, +2300 AADT west of Podimore Roundabout, +2100 on the Sparkford Bypass, and +1700 on the A303 West of the Ilchester A37 trumpet interchange.

Particularly the section of A303 between the A37 GSJ and South Petherton has no convenient alternatives for NMUs.

Similarly the A303 between Holton and the Sparkford Bypass requires a detour through South Cadbury to avoid, albeit of a lesser scale.

Have you assessed the impact of increased traffic on NMU journeys and safety?
If not, why not?
If so, how do you propose to deal with the negative impact thereof?

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Re: A303 Sparkford to Ilchester

Post by Debaser » Mon Aug 02, 2021 14:49

As far as I am aware, all vehicles will be allowed to use the A303 mainline, including cyclists.

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Re: A303 Sparkford to Ilchester

Post by solocle » Mon Aug 02, 2021 17:27

Debaser wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 14:49
As far as I am aware, all vehicles will be allowed to use the A303 mainline, including cyclists.
Image
This map shows what of the A303 I've ridden along. But the first tentative ride was the end of March, 2020, with the one from the A350 to Wincanton being early April.

West of Wincanton to the A37 was July 2020 (evening approaching sunset), and the anti-bottleneck effect of the Podimore lights was bad enough. I didn't have any particular issues on Wincanton-Sparkford, or indeed Sparkford-Ilchester itself. However the Podimore lights gave rise to noticeable pulses of traffic, which were somewhat sketchy on a dual carriageway - IME DCs are fine until you have a motorist being overtaken at the same time as they want to overtake you. In fact, last time I drove along the A303, there was chap cycling, as I was overtaking the lorry approaching him. I just held back and let the lorry out, but my experience is that that is rare.

Hence my concerns about the removal of the bottleneck - particularly the Fosse Way section south-west of the A37 junction has absolutely no direct alternatives. FWIW it's also used for time trials (course U30/10). The traffic is currently somewhat tempered by the capacity constraint, but is forecast a big increase, which is quite likely to tip that section of the A303 from "bleh, I'll put up with it" to "utterly unusable" for me. Well, at certain times, but I expect those hours to expand, basically. Not that I've actually ever had cause to use it, but it's the principle of the matter.

In fact, at the end of this month I'm planning this route up from Land's End, on the A303.
Image
Although in my case I'm headed for my parents' house, which is a mile of the A30, so the route cuts down through Montacute to Yeovil. I don't plan on taking the A30 from Devonshire House, because although the distance is much the same, 200m climbing saved in the Blackdowns is no joke, and 150 miles in, that's not to be sniffed at. Also if my timings are correct, that should be fairly early on a Sunday morning, so quiet, and mostly downhill, so moving fairly quickly.

I mean, look how much consideration I put in before deciding to ride on the A303! And that's the quietest section...

I really, really do not appreciate online duallings. Hence my query about NMU alternatives. And of course there's the spectre of "expressway", which means we're getting a motorway-esque road without the provision for NMUs, at least on adjacent stretches of road. If you build a motorway, you have to provide for prohibited traffic. If you build a motorway with green signs, and maintain it as all purpose, you don't, but the motorists can effectively bully NMUs off that route. That's my worst fear with this scheme.

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Re: A303 Sparkford to Ilchester

Post by Debaser » Mon Aug 02, 2021 18:17

solocle wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 17:27
I really, really do not appreciate online duallings. Hence my query about NMU alternatives. And of course there's the spectre of "expressway", which means we're getting a motorway-esque road without the provision for NMUs, at least on adjacent stretches of road. If you build a motorway, you have to provide for prohibited traffic. If you build a motorway with green signs, and maintain it as all purpose, you don't, but the motorists can effectively bully NMUs off that route. That's my worst fear with this scheme.
Several of the HE schemes I've worked on over the past 5 years were initially discussed as being potential expressways - none, that's none, have gone on to be expressways. It seems to me to be an idea that's been quietly dropped, at least for now.

The lack of decent NMU infrastructure is in part a result of how long these schemes take to develop - just because CD195 or LTN1/20 are published does not mean the handbrake is applied and a scheme is suddenly redesigned based on these new standards - and also it's partly down to who is involved in the design, who runs the scheme and what do they want out of it, both from Highways England's side and from the consultant doing the actual design.

Let me loose on a design and I'd like to think the resulting infrastructure would have you believe you were in the Netherlands, with wide tracks, cycle priority over accesses and side roads and decent grade separated crossings of the mainline. But that depends upon many things, from workload within the company limiting who is available to do what, and whether those project leaders within the company and at Highways England actually want that level of infrastructure, or just enough to keep the various campaign groups quiet [/cynicism].

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