M2 junction 5 improvements

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MotorwayPlannerM21
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Re: M2 junction 5 improvements

Post by MotorwayPlannerM21 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 13:55

jackal wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:55
MotorwayPlannerM21 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:15
Stockbury is currently accessed by an at-grade junction to the south of Stockbury Roundabout and as far as I can tell this will not change
Stockbury is currently accessed from the north via Honeycrock Hill. This access will be closed with traffic rerouted to Church Hill 700m further south.

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/asse ... rawing.pdf
I was talking about this access. Honeycrock Hill is hardly an acceptable access to the village and isn't even signposted as such.
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jackal
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Re: M2 junction 5 improvements

Post by jackal » Tue Jul 02, 2019 14:27

The Church Lane route to Stockbury is about three times longer than the Honeycrock Hill route. I'm pretty sure Honeycrock Hill will be the normal route for locals, signs or no signs.

If the MP's complaint is just about traffic being too fast approaching Church Lane once the flyover is in place, it's hard to see much cause for concern. The existing 1km downhill run from the roundabout is more than enough to get up speed, and it will be safer with the four side roads (two with reserve crossings) closed up.

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jackal
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Re: M2 junction 5 improvements

Post by jackal » Fri Oct 11, 2019 20:40

Today Highways England served their Statement of Case for the upcoming public local inquiry. They still plan to start construction in March:
May 2018 Preferred Route Announcement
13 June 2019 Published Orders under the Highways Act along with the Environmental Statement and the Consultation Report
25 July 2019 End of representation period
Summer/Autumn 2019 Ground Investigation Surveys
30 August 2019 Department for Transport announce intention to hold Public Inquiry
11 October 2019 Highways England serves Statement of Case
Late Winter 2020 Likely period for Public Inquiry (up to two weeks duration)
March 2020 Construction starts (if planning consent granted)
Late autumn/Early winter 2021 Open to the Public
The Statement of Case mentions a separate KCC grade separation scheme I'd not heard of previously:
The proposed scheme will provide safe access to Church Hill to and from the
A249. It is understood that local residents consider that connectivity could be
further improved by the building of a road bridge or underpass across A249. A
road bridge or underpass is not part of the Highways England Scheme, but this
is being separately considered by Kent County Council (KCC). For this KCC
have submitted a funding application to the Department for Transport (DfT) for a
“grade separated crossing (bridge/underpass)” on the A249 at Stockbury. If
successful, KCC will look to develop a scheme, which would be constructed
separately by KCC in the future.
http://assets.highwaysengland.co.uk/roa ... f+Case.pdf

https://highwaysengland.co.uk/projects/ ... rovements/

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Brenley Corner
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Re: M2 junction 5 improvements

Post by Brenley Corner » Mon Jun 21, 2021 14:50

The Secretary of State for Transport has approved Highways England proposed improvements for the M2 junction 5 Stockbury Interchange.

https://highwaysengland.co.uk/our-work/ ... rovements/
https://www.programmeofficers.co.uk/M2J5/Decision.pdf

Hopefully this can now move ahead assuming the funding is in place.

Tony
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Darren
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Re: M2 junction 5 improvements

Post by Darren » Mon Jun 21, 2021 18:57

Wow.

From that document:

"The Stockbury roundabout was designed and completed in the late 1960s in
anticipation of adoption of the European standard of driving on the right.
Consequently, and counterintuitively, access to the eastbound M2 is west off
the Stockbury roundabout and access to the M2 westbound carriageway is east
off the roundabout. "

I guess that explains the odd layout at the Stockbury Interchange then!

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Re: M2 junction 5 improvements

Post by M4 Cardiff » Mon Jun 21, 2021 19:04

Darren wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 18:57
Wow.

From that document:

"The Stockbury roundabout was designed and completed in the late 1960s in
anticipation of adoption of the European standard of driving on the right.
Consequently, and counterintuitively, access to the eastbound M2 is west off
the Stockbury roundabout and access to the M2 westbound carriageway is east
off the roundabout. "

I guess that explains the odd layout at the Stockbury Interchange then!
That of course raises the fascinating question - which other major junctions were designed with conversion to driving on the right in mind? Is it still a consideration for sightlines, gradients and traffic routing around a junction?
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SouthWest Philip
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Re: M2 junction 5 improvements

Post by SouthWest Philip » Mon Jun 21, 2021 19:15

Darren wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 18:57
Wow.

From that document:

"The Stockbury roundabout was designed and completed in the late 1960s in
anticipation of adoption of the European standard of driving on the right.
Consequently, and counterintuitively, access to the eastbound M2 is west off
the Stockbury roundabout and access to the M2 westbound carriageway is east
off the roundabout. "

I guess that explains the odd layout at the Stockbury Interchange then!
Sounds suspiciously like an urban myth to me! Why design just one junction in isolation for a never planned switch to driving on the right?

The geography of the site more than adequately explains the unusual layout and it's actually very intelligently designed with the main turning flows all being left turns.

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Re: M2 junction 5 improvements

Post by Truvelo » Mon Jun 21, 2021 22:45

SouthWest Philip wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 19:15
Darren wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 18:57
Wow.

From that document:

"The Stockbury roundabout was designed and completed in the late 1960s in
anticipation of adoption of the European standard of driving on the right.
Consequently, and counterintuitively, access to the eastbound M2 is west off
the Stockbury roundabout and access to the M2 westbound carriageway is east
off the roundabout. "

I guess that explains the odd layout at the Stockbury Interchange then!
Sounds suspiciously like an urban myth to me! Why design just one junction in isolation for a never planned switch to driving on the right?

The geography of the site more than adequately explains the unusual layout and it's actually very intelligently designed with the main turning flows all being left turns.
I think the right hand driving refers to the design of the looped slip roads joining the M20 more than anything else. As it stands the onslips are a tighter radius than the offslips, especially on the coastbound M20. If the driving direction was reversed the offslips would have the tighter radius. I believe it's preferable to have trumpet style slip roads with the outside slips joining a high speed route and the tighter inside slips leaving.
How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
Big and complex.

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jackal
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Re: M2 junction 5 improvements

Post by jackal » Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:56

Truvelo wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 22:45
SouthWest Philip wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 19:15
Darren wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 18:57


Wow.

From that document:

"The Stockbury roundabout was designed and completed in the late 1960s in
anticipation of adoption of the European standard of driving on the right.
Consequently, and counterintuitively, access to the eastbound M2 is west off
the Stockbury roundabout and access to the M2 westbound carriageway is east
off the roundabout. "

I guess that explains the odd layout at the Stockbury Interchange then!
Sounds suspiciously like an urban myth to me! Why design just one junction in isolation for a never planned switch to driving on the right?

The geography of the site more than adequately explains the unusual layout and it's actually very intelligently designed with the main turning flows all being left turns.
I think the right hand driving refers to the design of the looped slip roads joining the M20 more than anything else. As it stands the onslips are a tighter radius than the offslips, especially on the coastbound M20. If the driving direction was reversed the offslips would have the tighter radius. I believe it's preferable to have trumpet style slip roads with the outside slips joining a high speed route and the tighter inside slips leaving.
That's how CD 122 has it though I don't think there was such a restriction until the last couple of years (indeed the M1 J8 trumpet was rebuilt to be the 'wrong' way round). A quick look at this list suggests UK trumpets are about as likely to be one way round as the other:

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... _Junctions

In any case, I don't think that's what the document means as it says "Consequently, and counterintuitively, access to the eastbound M2 is west off the Stockbury roundabout", which would be true regardless of which way round the loop was built.

I suspect someone was just confused by the unusual geometry of the junction, which is amply explained by the lay of the land.

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jackal
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Re: M2 junction 5 improvements

Post by jackal » Thu Jun 24, 2021 09:26

Brenley Corner wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 14:50
The Secretary of State for Transport has approved Highways England proposed improvements for the M2 junction 5 Stockbury Interchange.

https://highwaysengland.co.uk/our-work/ ... rovements/
https://www.programmeofficers.co.uk/M2J5/Decision.pdf

Hopefully this can now move ahead assuming the funding is in place.

Tony
The press release mentions that "The main construction work is expected to start in September 2021".

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/high ... de-in-kent

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Re: M2 junction 5 improvements

Post by A303Chris » Thu Jun 24, 2021 09:46

Darren wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 18:57
Wow.

From that document:

"The Stockbury roundabout was designed and completed in the late 1960s in
anticipation of adoption of the European standard of driving on the right.
Consequently, and counterintuitively, access to the eastbound M2 is west off
the Stockbury roundabout and access to the M2 westbound carriageway is east
off the roundabout. "

I guess that explains the odd layout at the Stockbury Interchange then!
I think that is someone in the inquiry twisting the truth, the M2 was opened between 1963 and 1965, so early to mid 60's not late, and why only Junction 5.

After my experience of doing many inquiries and the fact that there was some opposition to the scheme, as an expert witness, you will get anything in that supports your case. This I think is an urban myth, been taking a little to far.
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Re: M2 junction 5 improvements

Post by c2R » Mon Jun 28, 2021 16:46

Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
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Re: M2 junction 5 improvements

Post by multiraider2 » Mon Jun 28, 2021 23:38

Did the junction for the first time last weekend (rather than pass it on the M2) and not having actually studied it in any detail and certainly not previous to the trip, I remarked to my family that I was initially confused by the left turn to Canterbury/Ramsgate, right for London coming from the A249. I guess I have got used to standard roundabout or dumbbell designs etc and this one doesn't really have a direct replica that I've seen. Anyway, onwards and upwards.

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Gav
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Re: M2 junction 5 improvements

Post by Gav » Sat Jul 03, 2021 23:00

its not urban myth -

if it was it would not have reached a government document like this...

Looking at it in isolation. the roundabout is counter intuitative. coming to the roundabout from the north or the south you have to go the wrong way for the direction of motorway you wish to head in. So you go londonbound to go coastbound and vice versa.

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Re: M2 junction 5 improvements

Post by Chris5156 » Sun Jul 04, 2021 00:50

Gav wrote:
Sat Jul 03, 2021 23:00
its not urban myth -

if it was it would not have reached a government document like this...
I absolutely disagree - just because it's turned up in an official document doesn't mean it is the unvarnished truth. The idea must have come from somewhere but the fact it was then published tells you only that nobody bothered checking their facts. The section in question is not written by anyone in Government or representing HE - it is written by a solicitor, who was preparing the Planning Inspectorate report into the scheme. They would be someone familiar with planning law but not someone familiar with the nuances of highway design or history.

It absolutely cannot be true for at least three very solid reasons.

The first is that no other junction on the M2 - which was designed as a single entity - was laid out for right-hand driving. Junction 2, in its original form, had folded sliproads that allowed traffic on the A228 to turn left if they wanted to go left on the M2 and go right if they wanted to go right. If the UK switched to right hand driving, it would break that and introduce exactly the sort of left-for-right and right-for-left confusion that exists at Stockbury. If Stockbury was designed for future conversion to right-hand driving, why didn't the exact same team of designers create the same futureproofing at junction 2?

The second is that roundabout entries are designed with curves to slow traffic on the approach, and roundabout exits are designed as tangents leading away so that traffic can leave smoothly and gather speed as it leaves the junction. There are examples of roundabouts in the UK where this geometry is reversed because the designers expected a switch to right-hand driving. But you can see on Old Maps that the geometry of the roundabout, as built in the 1960s, was designed for left-hand driving. If you were setting up your junction for right-hand driving, why would you build the sliproads for right-hand driving but not the roundabout?

The third is that switching to the other side of the road would not make all left and right turns at Stockbury intuitive. If you switch to right hand driving, you would only change which directions were confusing and counterintuitive. Today, you approach on the A249, and you must turn left to go right and right to go left. But if you switched, correcting that, you'd mess things up for traffic leaving the M2. For example, travelling westbound on the M2, and wanting to turn north onto the A249, your destination would be to your right - but on exiting the motorway the sliproad would spin you round 180 degrees and at the roundabout you'd need to turn left.

Fundamentally this is just an unusually laid-out junction because of the local topography. If it had been laid out for future right-hand driving I would expect to see evidence of that in more than just one feature of just one junction of a 25-mile motorway scheme. But there is no evidence of that, because it's not true.

If you would like any further evidence that things published in Government documents might turn out not to be true, I would direct you to the first part of the sentence where this claim is made, where it says the roundabout was designed in the late 1960s. It actually opened to traffic in 1963.

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Re: M2 junction 5 improvements

Post by jackal » Thu Aug 05, 2021 08:30


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Re: M2 junction 5 improvements

Post by Debaser » Thu Aug 05, 2021 09:02

jackal wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 08:30
£92m contract awarded to Graham:

https://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/ ... on-upgrade
To be honest this is very old news. I don't know why TCI is framing it as something new? Graham are a DIP partner in HE's east and southeast regions, so any HE schemes in those areas it'll have been a toss-up between them and one or two others in each area. The contractors (and their designers) for each scheme are already known.

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Re: M2 junction 5 improvements

Post by jackal » Thu Aug 05, 2021 09:07

Fair enough, though presumably the value of the contract would not have been known in 2019?

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Re: M2 junction 5 improvements

Post by Debaser » Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:50

jackal wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 09:07
Fair enough, though presumably the value of the contract would not have been known in 2019?
Probably not. Though if it had sneaked over the magical £100m I'm sure questions would have been asked.

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