A1 Darrington to Redhouse

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Bryn666
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by Bryn666 » Sun Sep 19, 2021 13:14

Struggling to work out how the terminology of a "Yorkshire Bypass" that is decidedly in the middle of Yorkshire works. They presumably mean People's Republic of Sheffield Bypass.

This and the LTC are the last two "desperately needed" motorways in England and 50% of them aren't even planned as a motorway....

Other schemes are just nice to haves, whereas these two are actively hindering the country by not existing.

I seriously hope National Agency for England Highways does a proper job of this one, an ALR with TRO a la A14 all purpose fudge will just demonstrate they've lost any ability to comprehend how a network should be designated. It's not hard to understand motorway orders, the fact the agency in charge of such things struggles with them should be ringing massive alarm bells everywhere.
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6637
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by 6637 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 23:43

I worry they'll just do a three-lane thing. If they're trying to make it a strategic route to the north it absolutely needs to be D4M from Doncaster to the M62, else it'll still be overcrowded from the day of opening.

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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by KeithW » Tue Sep 21, 2021 08:23

6637 wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 23:43
I worry they'll just do a three-lane thing. If they're trying to make it a strategic route to the north it absolutely needs to be D4M from Doncaster to the M62, else it'll still be overcrowded from the day of opening.
I see little justification for building it D4(M), traffic counts past Wetherby only around 60k and between Ferrybridge and Wetherby the only congestion hot spot is the lane drop at Ferrybridge from D3(M to D2. Build it D3(M) and if traffic volumes rise you can always convert it to ALR.

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stu531
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by stu531 » Tue Sep 21, 2021 09:29

KeithW wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 08:23
6637 wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 23:43
I worry they'll just do a three-lane thing. If they're trying to make it a strategic route to the north it absolutely needs to be D4M from Doncaster to the M62, else it'll still be overcrowded from the day of opening.
I see little justification for building it D4(M), traffic counts past Wetherby only around 60k and between Ferrybridge and Wetherby the only congestion hot spot is the lane drop at Ferrybridge from D3(M to D2. Build it D3(M) and if traffic volumes rise you can always convert it to ALR.
I'm not sure, y'know. North of the A64 junction, it still bumps around 100k AADT. The Wetherby-Dishforth stretch is always busy as it's the only dual carriageway between M1 and A1/A19 traffic, if you follow.

I do think the Donny bypass could do with being D4M between the M18 as it is now and the M62, particularly if it's seen as the strategic route and takes more traffic from the M1 between Leeds and Sheffield.

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jackal
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by jackal » Tue Sep 21, 2021 09:31

Darrington to Redhouse has lower volumes than the Doncaster bypass, so won't be made four lane if the bypass is only three lane. And the bypass will almost certainly be three lane.

Take a look at the skimpy central reservation and bridge support treatment installed on the Doncaster bypass over the winter. Doesn't it just scream "we're going to put an extra lane through"?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.50284 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.50057 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.49947 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.49228 ... 384!8i8192

Here's the 'before' shot for the last one: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.49226 ... 312!8i6656

The same has been done on the A1 Newcastle-Gateshead bypass, A19 Norton to Wynyard, A14 Cambridge Northern bypass, and various other widening schemes. So personally I think they've de facto started the ALR scheme under the auspices of maintenance.

As an aside, a few years ago a certain canine said this approach would be used to get an extra lane under the bridges, including in this very thread, and was mercilessly flamed for it...

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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by thomas417 » Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:36

jackal wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 09:31
Darrington to Redhouse has lower volumes than the Doncaster bypass, so won't be made four lane if the bypass is only three lane. And the bypass will almost certainly be three lane.

Take a look at the skimpy central reservation and bridge support treatment installed on the Doncaster bypass over the winter. Doesn't it just scream "we're going to put an extra lane through"?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.50284 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.50057 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.49947 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.49228 ... 384!8i8192

Here's the 'before' shot for the last one: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.49226 ... 312!8i6656

The same has been done on the A1 Newcastle-Gateshead bypass, A19 Norton to Wynyard, A14 Cambridge Northern bypass, and various other widening schemes. So personally I think they've de facto started the ALR scheme under the auspices of maintenance.

As an aside, a few years ago a certain canine said this approach would be used to get an extra lane under the bridges, including in this very thread, and was mercilessly flamed for it...
You could well be right and it's largely what I expect them to do. And unlike the Gateshead bypass you should just be able to get full lane widths through.

I do feel we'll get 4 lanes between the J35 (M18) and J36 however which will involve a few new structures. You've also then got the Don bridge which simply doesn't have the width for 3 lanes, never mind the strength, so expect a new bridge slightly offline also.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.50836 ... 384!8i8192

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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by KeithW » Tue Sep 21, 2021 13:03

jackal wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 09:31
Darrington to Redhouse has lower volumes than the Doncaster bypass, so won't be made four lane if the bypass is only three lane. And the bypass will almost certainly be three lane.

Take a look at the skimpy central reservation and bridge support treatment installed on the Doncaster bypass over the winter. Doesn't it just scream "we're going to put an extra lane through"?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.50284 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.50057 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.49947 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.49228 ... 384!8i8192

Here's the 'before' shot for the last one: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.49226 ... 312!8i6656

The same has been done on the A1 Newcastle-Gateshead bypass, A19 Norton to Wynyard, A14 Cambridge Northern bypass, and various other widening schemes. So personally I think they've de facto started the ALR scheme under the auspices of maintenance.

As an aside, a few years ago a certain canine said this approach would be used to get an extra lane under the bridges, including in this very thread, and was mercilessly flamed for it...
There was no hard shoulder on the A19 between Norton and Wynard so it was hardly a case of switching to ALR. They have had to find space for new lanes, at pinch points they are rather narrower than the old layout.
2019
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.61768 ... 6656?hl=en

Aug 2021
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.61769 ... 8192?hl=en

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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by jackal » Tue Sep 21, 2021 13:16

KeithW wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 13:03
jackal wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 09:31
Darrington to Redhouse has lower volumes than the Doncaster bypass, so won't be made four lane if the bypass is only three lane. And the bypass will almost certainly be three lane.

Take a look at the skimpy central reservation and bridge support treatment installed on the Doncaster bypass over the winter. Doesn't it just scream "we're going to put an extra lane through"?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.50284 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.50057 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.49947 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.49228 ... 384!8i8192

Here's the 'before' shot for the last one: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.49226 ... 312!8i6656

The same has been done on the A1 Newcastle-Gateshead bypass, A19 Norton to Wynyard, A14 Cambridge Northern bypass, and various other widening schemes. So personally I think they've de facto started the ALR scheme under the auspices of maintenance.

As an aside, a few years ago a certain canine said this approach would be used to get an extra lane under the bridges, including in this very thread, and was mercilessly flamed for it...
There was no hard shoulder on the A19 between Norton and Wynard so it was hardly a case of switching to ALR. They have had to find space for new lanes, at pinch points they are rather narrower than the old layout.
2019
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.61768 ... 6656?hl=en

Aug 2021
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.61769 ... 8192?hl=en
Hence as Thomas mentions above, and as I said many times previously, there is more space for the extra lane and less (or no) narrowing of lanes required on the A1(M).

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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by KeithW » Tue Sep 21, 2021 16:49

jackal wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 13:16
Hence as Thomas mentions above, and as I said many times previously, there is more space for the extra lane and less (or no) narrowing of lanes required on the A1(M).
As I recall the Doncaster bypass was built with narrower lanes and shoulders than modern motorways so its still going to be tight. They will have to do something about the Don Bridge as the fencing has proved to be no more use than a piece of wet string which is why it has gained some barriers.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.50867 ... 8192?hl=en

Its also pretty narrow at J36
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.49580 ... 8192?hl=en

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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by Big Nick » Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:07

KeithW wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 16:49
jackal wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 13:16
Hence as Thomas mentions above, and as I said many times previously, there is more space for the extra lane and less (or no) narrowing of lanes required on the A1(M).
As I recall the Doncaster bypass was built with narrower lanes and shoulders than modern motorways so its still going to be tight. They will have to do something about the Don Bridge as the fencing has proved to be no more use than a piece of wet string which is why it has gained some barriers.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.50867 ... 8192?hl=en

Its also pretty narrow at J36
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.49580 ... 8192?hl=en
Looking at the Don Bridges - for there are two of them side by side - it would seem a good idea to build a new 4 lane bridge on one side and then convert the old bridges to a safer 3 lane bridge with ample protection.
They could rebuild each one separately to carry 3 lanes and a shoulder but I dread to think of the delays caused by 2-way 40mph running on a single bridge.

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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by the cheesecake man » Wed Sep 22, 2021 13:00

KeithW wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 16:49

Its also pretty narrow at J36
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.49580 ... 8192?hl=en
J36 deserves a lane drop/gain. The sightlines from the slip road are already bad. With narrower lanes and no hard shoulders they will be horrendous.

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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by Achmelvic » Wed Sep 22, 2021 14:03

Big Nick wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:07

Looking at the Don Bridges - for there are two of them side by side - it would seem a good idea to build a new 4 lane bridge on one side and then convert the old bridges to a safer 3 lane bridge with ample protection.
They could rebuild each one separately to carry 3 lanes and a shoulder but I dread to think of the delays caused by 2-way 40mph running on a single bridge.
This seem the mostly likely to happen. Similar to what was done with the existing bridges on the A1(M) over the Wharfe at Wetherby and M2 over the Medway when they were widened in recent decades.

Assuming they do go this route I wonder if there be an effort made to match the new bridge to the style of the existing ones, legs etc, like at the Medway crossings?

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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by Achmelvic » Wed Sep 22, 2021 14:19

Speaking of bridges on this section I didn't realise until now that the 1960's Wentbridge viaduct is grade 2 listed.

I assume it will be refitted to take one carriageway and a new bridge built next to it for the other carriageway, will the new bridge have to be designed to be match or not visually impact the existing viaduct?

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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by wrinkly » Wed Sep 22, 2021 16:28

I think the 1990s scheme may have included a new viaduct alongside Wentbridge for both carriageways.

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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by JammyDodge » Wed Sep 22, 2021 17:24

It would be nice to see improvements to the A1/A1(M) all the way from Darrington to the M18
Here is a little snapshot of Redhouse - M18

A1(M) J35: Free flow slips from the M18 E and onto M18 W
J35-36: Widening to D4M
J36: Replacement to a Diamond or SPUI design. D3M ALR through J36
J36-North of the Railway: D4M ALR (Merging space)
Don Bridges: duel D3M bridges (New southbound bridge and either refurbish old ones or replace)
Don Bridges - J38: D3M
J38: Rebuilt to the west (to be further from Skellow). Rebuilt as a Parclo
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by Chris Bertram » Wed Sep 22, 2021 18:04

Ha! Some of us are old enough to remember Red House as a flat roundabout.
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by KeithW » Wed Sep 22, 2021 18:24

JammyDodge wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 17:24
It would be nice to see improvements to the A1/A1(M) all the way from Darrington to the M18
Here is a little snapshot of Redhouse - M18

A1(M) J35: Free flow slips from the M18 E and onto M18 W
J35-36: Widening to D4M
J36: Replacement to a Diamond or SPUI design. D3M ALR through J36
J36-North of the Railway: D4M ALR (Merging space)
Don Bridges: duel D3M bridges (New southbound bridge and either refurbish old ones or replace)
Don Bridges - J38: D3M
J38: Rebuilt to the west (to be further from Skellow). Rebuilt as a Parclo
Taking the junctions in turn

J35 - As you say he main problems are with traffic from the M18 Eastbound merging with the A1(M) Northbound and traffic leaving the A1(M) to head west along the M18 as this is a major link between the M1 and A1(M)

J36 - This I suspect is going to be the tricky one. As has already been said it really needs a lane drop there its a pretty nasty junction even at D2(M). The distance from the top of the slip to the A1(M) carriageway level is only 150m and the length of the merge is only 170m. Unless they can widen the cutting its going to be very tight. The A630 is a pretty busy road carrying around 15k of traffic. I dont think making it even worse would go down well with the locals and they can be pretty bolshie lot when they put their mind to it.

As for J38 I cant say it has been a problem since they got rid of the roundabout. There really isnt that much turning traffic .

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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by thatapanydude » Wed Sep 22, 2021 19:05

Here is a suggestion. If the M18 was extended to York from the M62, would the A1 need to be upgraded? I suspect not especially if the A19 was also dualled from York to Thirsk.

Re. the scheme at large, anything less than a D3(M) or D4(M) with HS is not acceptable.
A1/A1(M) >>> M1

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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by KeithW » Wed Sep 22, 2021 22:01

Chris Bertram wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 18:04
Ha! Some of us are old enough to remember Red House as a flat roundabout.
I got pulled and warned by the police there allegedly for approaching the roundabout at too high a speed. As it was 2.30 PM on a Sunday I suspect it was a case of 'I wonder if he has had a drink ?'

There used to be LOTS of roundabouts all the way from Dishforth to Buckden. My bete noire was Wetherby, I spent more of my life queuing there than I would care to count. Other bad ones were Burghley where it was sometimes backed up so far I would divert around the back roads to the west and end up re-joining north of Stamford and Markham Moor had its moments.

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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by NICK 647063 » Wed Sep 22, 2021 22:04

KeithW wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 08:23
6637 wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 23:43
I worry they'll just do a three-lane thing. If they're trying to make it a strategic route to the north it absolutely needs to be D4M from Doncaster to the M62, else it'll still be overcrowded from the day of opening.
I see little justification for building it D4(M), traffic counts past Wetherby only around 60k and between Ferrybridge and Wetherby the only congestion hot spot is the lane drop at Ferrybridge from D3(M to D2. Build it D3(M) and if traffic volumes rise you can always convert it to ALR.
I would say travel this on a Friday and you will see the only congestion spot isn’t ferrybridge lane drop, the queue heading south usually starts around Dishforth and is all the way down to the A64, it’s obviously D4M past aberford but the sheer amount of traffic jointing there creates a backlog to Dishforth now that’s some distance..... Aberford Bypass is around 140k and what you are missing is suppressed demand, basically once the A1 is upgraded around Doncaster it will become this “Yorkshire bypass” by that they simply mean it’s an even more attractive route to bypass Sheffield, Wakefield and Leeds, also at 10 miles shorter with a motorway standard it will take pretty much all the traffic, D4M would makes sense, far more sense than the D4M at Peterborough.

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