£40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

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WHBM
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by WHBM » Sat Sep 04, 2021 16:09

NICK 647063 wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 22:46

I live at Skellow which is literally the houses you see against the southbound carriageway prior to Redhouse, the existing A1 here is a nightmare it was closed 3 times on Wednesday with one closure going on for 6 hours after accidents, today another 2 that I know of, the traffic is more often stationary than moving, as residents from the bit of feedback we have had I’m thinking it’s offline with the old A1 past our houses as a LAR which for us is the very best option….
I wonder what the issue is on this section, as these figures do seem over the top compared to other overloaded NSL D2 sections. When you have a large number of such incidents there's generally some common cause.

My own last "near thing" was right on this section, just a couple of weeks ago. Southbound, Bradford back to London, evening peak, 70 mph still being maintained. Suddenly, northbound, a lorry loaded with bricks shed its load, the bricks load spilled right across the centre divider onto the southbound carriageway and suddenly appeared right in front of us. Braked down, just trying to balance between maximum brake and preventing the car behind hitting; fortunately he had it well under control as well. Ran over the bricks at about 30 mph. There were vehicles stopping just beyond, either punctured or physically hit. Called the police control and seemed to be the only one giving the detail accurately - officer said other calls were starting to come in as well. Northbound completely blocked, southbound squeezing past in Lane 1.

Thank you Mr Pirelli for those tyres that handled it.
Chris5156 wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 13:03

Some design and scoping was carried out on the M18-A1(M) shortcut route, because a SABRE member (who may or may not still be with us) messaged me about it perhaps six or seven years back. At that time the Highways Agency were looking at options for the Doncaster Bypass and the corner cut was looking promising.
Wasn't the most recent bit of the M1, from Leeds East to the A1(M) at Aberford, opened 1999, meant to have been a reliever of this. For whatever reason it doesn't seem to have achieved this at all.

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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by jackal » Sat Sep 04, 2021 18:53

KeithW wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 16:07
jackal wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 12:54
As well as ALR or a full outer Doncaster bypass, another option would be a two lane corner cut from the M18 near Clifton, rejoining the A1(M) near Sprotbrough. This route is significantly more direct than M18+A1(M). There have been rumblings about such a route for years, with the odd 'high level' map showing it.

A full bypass for A1(M) to A1(M) traffic would be much longer than the existing route so what's the point? The existing bypass should cope fine with the M18 traffic taken off it. And of course, the cost and environmental impact of a 2 lane corner cut would be far less (half?) that of a longer, wider bypass.

I still think ALR is more likely for cost and environmental reasons, but the corner cut has a few advantages compared to that - it removes the need for an expensive upgrade at the M18/A1(M) interchange and would significantly reduce volumes along the current bypass, improving journey times, safety, noise and air quality.

So ALR is most likely, then the corner cut, with the full bypass unlikely.

PS - I expect the A1(M) would be offline at Skellow regardless of the option for the Doncaster bypass.
This possibility was mentioned in another thread and in general I dont have a problem but there are some specific problems due to terrain. Between Sprotborough and Conisborough there is a significant escarpment on the North Bank of the Don and the area is heavily wooded.

The best viewpoint for that is here.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.48814 ... !1e4?hl=en

Given the allocated budget I suspect the cost would be excessive and every environmental activist in South Yorkshire would be on your case.
I was guessing it would run east of the Don to near the existing A1(M) bridge, past the north side of the dolomite quarry. The terrain is nothing special there: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.49347 ... !1e4?hl=en

The environmental point is a bit of a double edged sword as a corner cut would not be anywhere near as close to residential properties as the existing bypass. For all we know ALR may not even be permitted for air quality reasons (see M60 smart motorway scheme). One might say the choice is basically nature vs amenity.

You can make a case for either option IMO, so ideally both would be put out to consultation. But quite likely ALR will be the only option for cost reasons, as you say.

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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by Glenn A » Sat Sep 04, 2021 19:01

Rillington wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 18:53
I think there's a reasonable case for dualling all of the A66 west of Cockermouth.
Cumbria County Council made a business case for this in 2008, and also for a southern relief road for Workington, essentially replacing the A597. The latter was effectively cancelled when the district council gave planning permission for an Asda and car park at the northern end.

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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by Enceladus » Sat Sep 04, 2021 23:48

I’m just wondering out loud if the A1(M) Doncaster Bypass rebuild scheme might be like the 1990s M5 J3 to J8 type widening scheme, with a new carriageway excavated out beside the existing motorway and a complete demolition and rebuild of all the bridges and junctions? :scratchchin: :scratchchin:
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by jackal » Sun Sep 05, 2021 08:04

Enceladus wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 23:48
I’m just wondering out loud if the A1(M) Doncaster Bypass rebuild scheme might be like the 1990s M5 J3 to J8 type widening scheme, with a new carriageway excavated out beside the existing motorway and a complete demolition and rebuild of all the bridges and junctions? :scratchchin: :scratchchin:
Certainly not through the urban section!

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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by KeithW » Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:23

jackal wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 18:53

I was guessing it would run east of the Don to near the existing A1(M) bridge, past the north side of the dolomite quarry. The terrain is nothing special there: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.49347 ... !1e4?hl=en

The environmental point is a bit of a double edged sword as a corner cut would not be anywhere near as close to residential properties as the existing bypass. For all we know ALR may not even be permitted for air quality reasons (see M60 smart motorway scheme). One might say the choice is basically nature vs amenity.

You can make a case for either option IMO, so ideally both would be put out to consultation. But quite likely ALR will be the only option for cost reasons, as you say.
That is also my expectation, HE also seem to provide 3 route options, 2 of which are realistic and the third way out there. If we are going for retaining the Doncaster bypass then a route east of Darrington makes sense but at Redhouse a route to the west taking traffic away from Skellow is better I think. The main urban area is Warmsworth and there the road is largely in a cutting and tree lined so that may be manageable.

I think some modifications will have to be made to the M18/A1(M) junction as queuing is pretty common especially for traffic heading for the M1.

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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by Chris5156 » Sun Sep 05, 2021 13:43

KeithW wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:23
I think some modifications will have to be made to the M18/A1(M) junction as queuing is pretty common especially for traffic heading for the M1.
The M18/A1(M) junction would lend itself to a loop in the SE quadrant, similar to M62/M57 and the proposals for M60/M62/M66 and M25/A12. That appears to be a current favoured way to deal with three level stacked roundabouts, but it would also be easier to build here than direct free-flow slips because it would avoid the local roads and farm buildings on the west side of the junction.

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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by jackal » Sun Sep 05, 2021 16:52

Chris5156 wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 13:43
KeithW wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:23
I think some modifications will have to be made to the M18/A1(M) junction as queuing is pretty common especially for traffic heading for the M1.
The M18/A1(M) junction would lend itself to a loop in the SE quadrant, similar to M62/M57 and the proposals for M60/M62/M66 and M25/A12. That appears to be a current favoured way to deal with three level stacked roundabouts, but it would also be easier to build here than direct free-flow slips because it would avoid the local roads and farm buildings on the west side of the junction.
That would be a decent outcome though ideally they'd come up with a higher quality connection - can it really be a 'Yorkshire bypass' if it's going through a 40mph loop?

There are also constraints at Simister (J17 and Simister village) and M25/A12 (railway bridge) that favour a loop, but which are not applicable here.

Something like this would seem to do the job:

A1(M) M18 interchange - Copy.png

Similar whirlpool-like designs were preferred for both the M25 J29 and M25 J30 upgrades that formed part of earlier LTC options:

M25 A127 - Copy.PNG
M25 A13 - Copy.PNG

These designs used bridges to get over the high mainline, which is less direct but cheaper and more buildable than the Lofthouse-like tunnel in my sketch.

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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by Rillington » Sun Sep 05, 2021 19:21

It does surprise me that you have to negotiate a roundabout at Simister Junction if you are coming off/heading onto the M66. Why wasn't this built as a GSJ?

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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by NICK 647063 » Sun Sep 05, 2021 21:23

WHBM wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 16:09
NICK 647063 wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 22:46

I live at Skellow which is literally the houses you see against the southbound carriageway prior to Redhouse, the existing A1 here is a nightmare it was closed 3 times on Wednesday with one closure going on for 6 hours after accidents, today another 2 that I know of, the traffic is more often stationary than moving, as residents from the bit of feedback we have had I’m thinking it’s offline with the old A1 past our houses as a LAR which for us is the very best option….
I wonder what the issue is on this section, as these figures do seem over the top compared to other overloaded NSL D2 sections. When you have a large number of such incidents there's generally some common cause.

My own last "near thing" was right on this section, just a couple of weeks ago. Southbound, Bradford back to London, evening peak, 70 mph still being maintained. Suddenly, northbound, a lorry loaded with bricks shed its load, the bricks load spilled right across the centre divider onto the southbound carriageway and suddenly appeared right in front of us. Braked down, just trying to balance between maximum brake and preventing the car behind hitting; fortunately he had it well under control as well. Ran over the bricks at about 30 mph. There were vehicles stopping just beyond, either punctured or physically hit. Called the police control and seemed to be the only one giving the detail accurately - officer said other calls were starting to come in as well. Northbound completely blocked, southbound squeezing past in Lane 1.

Thank you Mr Pirelli for those tyres that handled it.
Chris5156 wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 13:03

Some design and scoping was carried out on the M18-A1(M) shortcut route, because a SABRE member (who may or may not still be with us) messaged me about it perhaps six or seven years back. At that time the Highways Agency were looking at options for the Doncaster Bypass and the corner cut was looking promising.
Wasn't the most recent bit of the M1, from Leeds East to the A1(M) at Aberford, opened 1999, meant to have been a reliever of this. For whatever reason it doesn't seem to have achieved this at all.
The M1 east Leeds section did take some pressure off but it was mainly to give a route to the M62 and get the through traffic off the A64 in Leeds which is achieved, also relieving many other roads, the issue is the M1 route is 10 miles longer and for me dull, I would always take the A1 regardless….

As for the A1 issues well it was closed northbound at wentbridge this morning by an accident, had another bump outside mine at Skellow tonight, I remember when the A1 Britain’s longest road programme was on TV even the traffic officers said this section was notorious and had daily issues, I can certainly verify this!

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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by Chris Bertram » Sun Sep 05, 2021 21:31

Rillington wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 19:21
It does surprise me that you have to negotiate a roundabout at Simister Junction if you are coming off/heading onto the M66. Why wasn't this built as a GSJ?
Let's remember that M62 and M66 crossed here originally, before the concept of M60 as the Manchester ORR was dreamed up*. The main flows would have been straight through, and turning movements adequately catered for by a roundabout. The completion of M60 has completely changed the dynamics of the junction, and if it were being designed now, it would undoubtedly be different.

* M66 existed in two parts for a while, the northern part terminating at what is now M60 J19, the southern part comprising M60 J24-25. Now we have M62 in two parts, albeit linked by M60, while M66 has been truncated and only exists now to the north of Simister.
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by Bryn666 » Sun Sep 05, 2021 22:11

Chris Bertram wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 21:31
Rillington wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 19:21
It does surprise me that you have to negotiate a roundabout at Simister Junction if you are coming off/heading onto the M66. Why wasn't this built as a GSJ?
Let's remember that M62 and M66 crossed here originally, before the concept of M60 as the Manchester ORR was dreamed up*. The main flows would have been straight through, and turning movements adequately catered for by a roundabout. The completion of M60 has completely changed the dynamics of the junction, and if it were being designed now, it would undoubtedly be different.

* M66 existed in two parts for a while, the northern part terminating at what is now M60 J19, the southern part comprising M60 J24-25. Now we have M62 in two parts, albeit linked by M60, while M66 has been truncated and only exists now to the north of Simister.
The Manchester ORR was planned as early as 1945. What possessed the NWRCU to build an utterly crap junction here was that the Ministry of Transport was increasingly reluctant to fund gigantic motorway schemes in Lancashire so ambitions had to be scaled back. The Middleton Link opened in 1970 with the M62, but the M66 to the north was going back and forth through planning hell, and as a result all the MoT would pay for was a bog standard roundabout which could be dug out later for the M66. The NWRCU pre-empted the problems this would cause by designing the Middleton Link with huge flared carriageways which would have allowed a direct connection but by the time the eastern side of the M60 was approved for construction, the M62 had been widened right up to the highway boundary and the Middleton Link was reprofiled as a dual four lane motorway minus the bonus slips. So in 1998 a cheapo desperation widening of the Simister roundabout took place.

https://structurae.net/en/structures/be ... arn-bridge - here's a nice view of the M62 being widened.

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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by jackal » Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:57

A little follow up to this has been published as "National Infrastructure and Construction Procurement Pipeline 2020/21". I pulled out the road schemes:

Key Client / Project Name / Estimated Contract Award Date* / Estimated Contract Value (£)**
Highways England Smart Motorways Q4 2020/21 7,000,000,000
Highways England A303 Amesbury to Berwick Down Q1 2021/22 2,800,000,000
Highways England Scheme Delivery Framework (SDF) Q3 2021/22 2,800,000,000
Highways England A428 Black Cat to Caxton Gibbet Q1 2021/22 1,600,000,000
Highways England Free Flow Charging Dart Charge Q4 2021/22 300,000,000
Highways England Lower Thames Crossing Q4 2020/21 250,000,000
Highways England Archaeology Framework Q2 2020/21 200,000,000
Highways England Manchester North West Quadrant Technical Partner Q4 2020/21 150,000,000
DVSA Future Theory Test Services Q4 2020/21 128,000,000
Highways England A12 Chelmsford to A120 Widening Q3 2020/21 110,000,000
Highways England A66 Scotch Corner Q4 2020/21 60,000,000
Highways England Winter Fleet Repalcement Q4 2020/21 60,000,000
Welsh Government A494 River Dee Bridge Q2 2021/22 60,000,000
Welsh Government A55 Junctions 15 and 16 Q4 2021/22 50,000,000
Highways England Historical Railways Estate 2020 Services Q3 2020/21 40,000,000
South Tyneside Council A185 Dualling between A19 and Port of Tyne Q2 2021/22 25,000,000
South Tyneside Council A184 Mill Lane- White Mare Pool Improvements Q2 2021/22 20,000,000
South Tyneside Council Level Crossing Closures and new bridge / highway Q4 2020/21 20,000,000
Highways England, Stockton Borough Council A19 Tees Crossing - Portrack Relief Road Q1 2021/22 14,000,000
Combined Authority and Cambridgeshire County Council A10 Dualling and Junctions Q4 2020/21 8,000,000
Combined Authority and Cambridgeshire County Council Coldhams Lane Q1 2021/22 6,000,000
Welsh Government SA1 Multi-Storey Car Park D& B Contract Q4 2020/21 5,000,000
South Tyneside Council A19 Lane Gain/Drop South Bound Q2 2021/22 3,000,000
South Tyneside Council South Tyneside- Sunderland Public Transport Corridoor Q2 2021/22 3,000,000
Combined Authority and Cambridgeshire County Council March Area Capacity Study Q4 2020/21 1,500,000

Note that the costs are maximum contract values (so in many cases higher than expected). Also some are a fraction of a larger scheme (e.g. the Lower Thames Crossing entry 'is for the Delivery Partner only for 20/21'). See the spreadsheet for details:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ine-202021

There's also an NCE article querying costs. Some of the contracts mentioned don't correspond to what's in the file, so possibly the govt have edited it.

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest ... 0-09-2021/

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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by Rillington » Fri Sep 24, 2021 19:48

What are the plans for Scotch Corner?

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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by Achmelvic » Sat Sep 25, 2021 00:14

Rillington wrote:What are the plans for Scotch Corner?
As far as I know it’s not known however given they’ve done pretty much everything that can be done with the roundabout as it is I assume it’ll be some kind of extra slip roads bypassing the roundabout, not sure what they will get for £60 million?

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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by c2R » Sat Sep 25, 2021 06:59

Achmelvic wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 00:14
Rillington wrote:What are the plans for Scotch Corner?
As far as I know it’s not known however given they’ve done pretty much everything that can be done with the roundabout as it is I assume it’ll be some kind of extra slip roads bypassing the roundabout, not sure what they will get for £60 million?
Ha, they've done nowhere near everything that could be done - there's all sorts of possibilities like widening approaches further, creating a cut through for A1N traffic to better access the services; creating hamburgerisation for A6055 S/B; bridge widening and replacement.....
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by KeithW » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:45

Achmelvic wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 00:14
Rillington wrote:What are the plans for Scotch Corner?
As far as I know it’s not known however given they’ve done pretty much everything that can be done with the roundabout as it is I assume it’ll be some kind of extra slip roads bypassing the roundabout, not sure what they will get for £60 million?
They could take lot of traffic off the roundabout just by adding a slip from the A66 eastbound to the A1(M) Northbound. A slip from the A1(M) south of Scotch Corner to the A66 westbound is another obvious way to reduce congestion. This only amounts to a couple of miles of road and really should have been part of the Leeming to Barton scheme instead of the bodge that is there.

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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by M19 » Wed Sep 29, 2021 21:35

How about direct connector slips.
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by Phil » Fri Oct 01, 2021 04:24

Enceladus wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 23:48
I’m just wondering out loud if the A1(M) Doncaster Bypass rebuild scheme might be like the 1990s M5 J3 to J8 type widening scheme, with a new carriageway excavated out beside the existing motorway and a complete demolition and rebuild of all the bridges and junctions? :scratchchin: :scratchchin:
In the mid to late 1980s - yes.

Nowadays - not a cat in hells chance. If it gets widened it will be a as Smart motorway with narrow lanes where necessary.

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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by wrinkly » Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:28

Phil wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 04:24
Enceladus wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 23:48
I’m just wondering out loud if the A1(M) Doncaster Bypass rebuild scheme might be like the 1990s M5 J3 to J8 type widening scheme, with a new carriageway excavated out beside the existing motorway and a complete demolition and rebuild of all the bridges and junctions? :scratchchin: :scratchchin:
In the mid to late 1980s - yes.

Nowadays - not a cat in hells chance. If it gets widened it will be a as Smart motorway with narrow lanes where necessary.
And could never have happened at the J36 pinch point where there are houses both sides.

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