Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Ross Spur
Member
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 20:16
Location: Swadlincote

Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by Ross Spur » Fri Sep 24, 2021 16:30

MikeB55 wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:21
There is one junction I know well which had provision for a flyover for many years, but the flyover wasn't added until 2015.
It is Penn Inn, just outside Newton Abbot on the A380.
Does anyone know when the Kingsteignton/Newton Abbot bypass was originally built?
It was opened on 21st May 1976 per a 30th Anniversary Article in the Mid Devon Advertiser. There is a bit more information on the Network Changes page at https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... es_-_1970s
Ian

From the SABRE Wiki: Network changes - 1970s :
list of the changes to the road network in Great Britain from 1970 - 1979.  Includes road openings and renumberings.



|

... Read More

User avatar
Chris Bertram
Committee Member
Posts: 13465
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by Chris Bertram » Fri Sep 24, 2021 16:41

Dartmouth Circus on the Birmingham (Middle) Ring Road; this would clearly have had a sweeping curve to it, like the flyover at Lancaster Circus not far to the south. The MRR has very limited grade separation - the Belgrave underpass is the only bit completed, and there's no evidence of any more flares or stubs. The former IRR, however, was grade-separated in some way at almost every junction, including a 3-level stacked roundabout at Lancaster Circus. The A38 as it passes through the city is what remains of this.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

domcoop
Member
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 22:27
Location: Orrell, Lancashire

Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by domcoop » Fri Sep 24, 2021 17:10

Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 15:33
https://goo.gl/maps/cQ7QMxGmifpxpSBz6

A million SABRE pounds (cash value: 1 pint) to anyone who can explain why this stub was built on the M65 as part of the 1997 extension. None of us have ever found an answer in an archive and there's nowhere obvious (well, not without huge disruption to the roads involved back in 1997) for it to connect to.
Just a guess, but Whitebirk roundabout is huge for what it is, so presumably the main route would have been a flyover directly over it and along what is now Carl Fogarty Way into the town centre, with the stubs going off to join the roundabout? Although how much traffic were they anticipating on that roundabout to justify a GSJ, even in the early 90s?

[EDIT]

In fact, a quick further search shows that the 1991 Statutory Instrument, which refers to a "deposited plan" which I can't view online, refers to the junction as:-
7. Two routes to connect the eastbound and westbound carriageways of the M65 Motorway (Calder Valley Route, Whitebirk to Hyndburn Section) with the Whitebirk Roundabout (Junction 6 on the M65); giving access to Blackburn Road (A678) and Whitebirk Drive (A6119). (The special roads along these routes being respectively given the reference numbers 34 and 35 on Scheme Plan No. 3 in the deposited plan.)
This was amended in 1992, by another Statutory Instrument, so say:-
“7. Junction with Blackburn Road (A678) and Whitebirk Drive (A6119) at Whitebirk.

A route from the Whitebirk Roundabout (Junction 6 on the M65, giving access to Blackburn Road (A678) and Whitebirk Drive (A6119)), to the eastbound carriageway of the M65. The special road along this route being given the reference number 34 on Scheme Plan No. 3 in the deposited plan.”; and

(d)the heavy black line on Scheme Plan No. 3 in the deposited plan, within the meaning of the principal scheme, which is given reference number 35, shall be disregarded.
So the deposited plan from 1991 should show it, and then obviously somebody had second thoughts but it was felt, for whatever reason, to keep the stubs in just in case they reverted the original plan at a later date.

Like I say, that's just a guess though!
Dominic

User avatar
haymansafc
Member
Posts: 4781
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 16:52
Location: Ellesmere Port, Cheshire

Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by haymansafc » Fri Sep 24, 2021 17:54

ForestChav wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 09:28
No-one's mentioned the incomplete junction on the M53 yet either where it used to change to the M531.
Indeed, this one. I remember the bridge that used to go over the northbound carriageway here. It's long since been removed. I think it was removed roughly around the turn of the century.
The journey is never over until the arrival.

MikeB55
New Member
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2021 13:49
Location: Cambridge

Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by MikeB55 » Fri Sep 24, 2021 18:23

Similar to my A380 example, two junctions on the A500 in Stoke have had flyovers added after around 30 years.

OliverH
Member
Posts: 209
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:52
Location: West Yorkshire

Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by OliverH » Fri Sep 24, 2021 18:29

Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 15:33
https://goo.gl/maps/cQ7QMxGmifpxpSBz6

A million SABRE pounds (cash value: 1 pint) to anyone who can explain why this stub was built on the M65 as part of the 1997 extension. None of us have ever found an answer in an archive and there's nowhere obvious (well, not without huge disruption to the roads involved back in 1997) for it to connect to.
Maybe it was built for a future flyover over the elongated roundabout.

User avatar
owen b
Member
Posts: 8727
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 15:22
Location: Luton

Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by owen b » Fri Sep 24, 2021 21:52

The A6 starts inauspiciously at a large roundabout on the Luton inner ring road. There are tell tale splays indicating provision for a flyover which was never built. The inner ring was eventually finished only a few years ago to a much lower specification.
Owen

User avatar
Chris5156
Member
Posts: 14891
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by Chris5156 » Sat Sep 25, 2021 09:24

domcoop wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 17:10
Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 15:33
https://goo.gl/maps/cQ7QMxGmifpxpSBz6

A million SABRE pounds (cash value: 1 pint) to anyone who can explain why this stub was built on the M65 as part of the 1997 extension. None of us have ever found an answer in an archive and there's nowhere obvious (well, not without huge disruption to the roads involved back in 1997) for it to connect to.
Just a guess, but Whitebirk roundabout is huge for what it is, so presumably the main route would have been a flyover directly over it and along what is now Carl Fogarty Way into the town centre, with the stubs going off to join the roundabout? Although how much traffic were they anticipating on that roundabout to justify a GSJ, even in the early 90s?

[EDIT]

In fact, a quick further search shows that the 1991 Statutory Instrument, which refers to a "deposited plan" which I can't view online, refers to the junction as:-
7. Two routes to connect the eastbound and westbound carriageways of the M65 Motorway (Calder Valley Route, Whitebirk to Hyndburn Section) with the Whitebirk Roundabout (Junction 6 on the M65); giving access to Blackburn Road (A678) and Whitebirk Drive (A6119). (The special roads along these routes being respectively given the reference numbers 34 and 35 on Scheme Plan No. 3 in the deposited plan.)
This was amended in 1992, by another Statutory Instrument, so say:-
“7. Junction with Blackburn Road (A678) and Whitebirk Drive (A6119) at Whitebirk.

A route from the Whitebirk Roundabout (Junction 6 on the M65, giving access to Blackburn Road (A678) and Whitebirk Drive (A6119)), to the eastbound carriageway of the M65. The special road along this route being given the reference number 34 on Scheme Plan No. 3 in the deposited plan.”; and

(d)the heavy black line on Scheme Plan No. 3 in the deposited plan, within the meaning of the principal scheme, which is given reference number 35, shall be disregarded.
So the deposited plan from 1991 should show it, and then obviously somebody had second thoughts but it was felt, for whatever reason, to keep the stubs in just in case they reverted the original plan at a later date.

Like I say, that's just a guess though!
Those SIs seem to just describe the two sliproads as they exist, and not any sort of flyover or underpass of Whitebirk Roundabout. The description is of two roads, one eastbound and one westbound, connecting the M65 with the roundabout, and nothing more - that's what was built. The plans attached are likely to be "line plans" that just show the route of each sliproad and they're unlikely to be detailed enough to show something like the carriageway stub.

The roundabout is laid out for grade separation because it was built as part of the M65 between junctions 6 and 7, which opened in 1984. At that time the plan was for the motorway to continue west towards Preston on a route through the middle of Blackburn, so the roundabout's design is intended for the motorway to fly over the top on its way to the town centre. You can see the original layout of the junction here.

The westward extension was then revised to take a route around the south of Blackburn, which is why the motorway now has a sharp turn at junction 6. The westbound exit sliproad to junction 6 dates from 1997 when the southern bypass was built and replaces the direct line the motorway took before then, so the carriageway stub was built at a time when there was no longer any plan for the M65 to fly over Whitebirk Roundabout.

There's a bit more detail on the M65 around Blackburn on a certain website here.

User avatar
Bryn666
Member
Posts: 31755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54

Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by Bryn666 » Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:51

Chris5156 wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 09:24
domcoop wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 17:10
Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 15:33
https://goo.gl/maps/cQ7QMxGmifpxpSBz6

A million SABRE pounds (cash value: 1 pint) to anyone who can explain why this stub was built on the M65 as part of the 1997 extension. None of us have ever found an answer in an archive and there's nowhere obvious (well, not without huge disruption to the roads involved back in 1997) for it to connect to.
Just a guess, but Whitebirk roundabout is huge for what it is, so presumably the main route would have been a flyover directly over it and along what is now Carl Fogarty Way into the town centre, with the stubs going off to join the roundabout? Although how much traffic were they anticipating on that roundabout to justify a GSJ, even in the early 90s?

[EDIT]

In fact, a quick further search shows that the 1991 Statutory Instrument, which refers to a "deposited plan" which I can't view online, refers to the junction as:-
7. Two routes to connect the eastbound and westbound carriageways of the M65 Motorway (Calder Valley Route, Whitebirk to Hyndburn Section) with the Whitebirk Roundabout (Junction 6 on the M65); giving access to Blackburn Road (A678) and Whitebirk Drive (A6119). (The special roads along these routes being respectively given the reference numbers 34 and 35 on Scheme Plan No. 3 in the deposited plan.)
This was amended in 1992, by another Statutory Instrument, so say:-
“7. Junction with Blackburn Road (A678) and Whitebirk Drive (A6119) at Whitebirk.

A route from the Whitebirk Roundabout (Junction 6 on the M65, giving access to Blackburn Road (A678) and Whitebirk Drive (A6119)), to the eastbound carriageway of the M65. The special road along this route being given the reference number 34 on Scheme Plan No. 3 in the deposited plan.”; and

(d)the heavy black line on Scheme Plan No. 3 in the deposited plan, within the meaning of the principal scheme, which is given reference number 35, shall be disregarded.
So the deposited plan from 1991 should show it, and then obviously somebody had second thoughts but it was felt, for whatever reason, to keep the stubs in just in case they reverted the original plan at a later date.

Like I say, that's just a guess though!
Those SIs seem to just describe the two sliproads as they exist, and not any sort of flyover or underpass of Whitebirk Roundabout. The description is of two roads, one eastbound and one westbound, connecting the M65 with the roundabout, and nothing more - that's what was built. The plans attached are likely to be "line plans" that just show the route of each sliproad and they're unlikely to be detailed enough to show something like the carriageway stub.

The roundabout is laid out for grade separation because it was built as part of the M65 between junctions 6 and 7, which opened in 1984. At that time the plan was for the motorway to continue west towards Preston on a route through the middle of Blackburn, so the roundabout's design is intended for the motorway to fly over the top on its way to the town centre. You can see the original layout of the junction here.

The westward extension was then revised to take a route around the south of Blackburn, which is why the motorway now has a sharp turn at junction 6. The westbound exit sliproad to junction 6 dates from 1997 when the southern bypass was built and replaces the direct line the motorway took before then, so the carriageway stub was built at a time when there was no longer any plan for the M65 to fly over Whitebirk Roundabout.

There's a bit more detail on the M65 around Blackburn on a certain website here.
The route through Blackburn was dead after the cancellation of the western half of the M65 in 1980, any road scheme into Blackburn from then on would be a local authority scheme. The problem then became one of how do you end the motorway at J6 in a fashion that gets traffic onto the A6119. A smaller circular roundabout would have presumably lacked the capacity to cope so they went with the giant circulatory as a stop gap.

It was 1987 before the southern bypass was back on the cards and even then it was still going to be all-purpose until the 1991 SI listed above.

And of course, none of this explains that stump :lol:
Bryn
Traffic/Road Safety Dogsbody and General Grumpy Now-a-Thirtysomething Man
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/

User avatar
Big L
Deputy Site Manager
Posts: 5564
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 20:36
Location: B5012

Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by Big L » Sat Sep 25, 2021 13:28

Chris Bertram wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 16:41
Dartmouth Circus on the Birmingham (Middle) Ring Road; this would clearly have had a sweeping curve to it, like the flyover at Lancaster Circus not far to the south. The MRR has very limited grade separation - the Belgrave underpass is the only bit completed, and there's no evidence of any more flares or stubs. The former IRR, however, was grade-separated in some way at almost every junction, including a 3-level stacked roundabout at Lancaster Circus. The A38 as it passes through the city is what remains of this.
I think this is as much of that flyover that exists.
Make poetry history.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

Micro The Maniac
Member
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 13:14
Location: B3272/A325/A331

Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by Micro The Maniac » Sat Sep 25, 2021 14:39

Two pages in, and no-one has mentioned Crossbush on the A27?

https://goo.gl/maps/36S5wrxQ7ZSJgsbDA

ais523
Member
Posts: 1107
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 19:52
Location: Birmingham

Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by ais523 » Sat Sep 25, 2021 14:45

The north end of the M69 has carriageway separation (and a reduction in lane count), implying that there was meant to be a flyover there. (Given that the A46(M) is no longer a motorway, I assume you'd probably connect it to the M1 northbound if you were to use it for something.)

It's also worth mentioning the infamous "Northfield underpass" in Birmingham (at the A38/B4121 junction), although my conclusion there was that it was just a coincidence of retaining wall placement rather than an intent to future-proof the B4121 for grade separation.

User avatar
Chris5156
Member
Posts: 14891
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by Chris5156 » Sat Sep 25, 2021 18:08

ais523 wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 14:45
The north end of the M69 has carriageway separation (and a reduction in lane count), implying that there was meant to be a flyover there. (Given that the A46(M) is no longer a motorway, I assume you'd probably connect it to the M1 northbound if you were to use it for something.)
It was never going to the A46(M) spur - the unfinished bit of M69 was intended to pass over the M1, with some free-flow sliproads to and from the north, and then join the Outer Ring Road.

JoshBostock01
Member
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2020 22:44

Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by JoshBostock01 » Sat Sep 25, 2021 18:59

The whole of the A823(M)! It's a mile long and is pretty much just sliproads. Both ends are incomplete and one end even has a multiple flyovers over nothing and a half-abandoned bridge.

jabbaboy
Member
Posts: 125
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 09:25
Location: Newcastle

Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by jabbaboy » Sat Sep 25, 2021 21:04

There's quite a few in the Newcastle area.

A192/A189 - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.10478 ... a=!3m1!1e3
A192 / A1171 - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.10181 ... a=!3m1!1e3
Unclassified / A1171 - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.09519 ... a=!3m1!1e3
A1172 - Unclassified - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.08799 ... a=!3m1!1e3
A167(M) - Numerous
A167 - Gateshead Flyover - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.96164 ... a=!3m1!1e3
A184 - Testos - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.94226 ... a=!3m1!1e3

A182 / A183 - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.86836 ... a=!3m1!1e3
A695 - Blaydon Flyover - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.96530 ... a=!3m1!1e3
A688 - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.69690 ... a=!3m1!1e3

Really don't have a clue what the plans were for the last 3 as there's no realistic route for any of them to take without demolition.

User avatar
Truvelo
Member
Posts: 16620
Joined: Wed May 29, 2002 21:10
Location: Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by Truvelo » Sat Sep 25, 2021 21:08

jabbaboy wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 21:04
A182 / A183 - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.86836 ... a=!3m1!1e3
A695 - Blaydon Flyover - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.96530 ... a=!3m1!1e3
A688 - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.69690 ... a=!3m1!1e3

Really don't have a clue what the plans were for the last 3 as there's no realistic route for any of them to take without demolition.
As for these three I only have plans for the A688. The other two have drawn a complete blank. There are plans for Blaydon at Gateshead Library including a nice glossy opening brochure but it only shows the section which was built and nothing else :@
How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
Big and complex.

KeithW
Member
Posts: 11886
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by KeithW » Sat Sep 25, 2021 22:23

jabbaboy wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 21:04
There's quite a few in the Newcastle area.

A192/A189 - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.10478 ... a=!3m1!1e3
A192 / A1171 - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.10181 ... a=!3m1!1e3
Unclassified / A1171 - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.09519 ... a=!3m1!1e3
A1172 - Unclassified - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.08799 ... a=!3m1!1e3
A167(M) - Numerous
A167 - Gateshead Flyover - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.96164 ... a=!3m1!1e3
A184 - Testos - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.94226 ... a=!3m1!1e3

A182 / A183 - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.86836 ... a=!3m1!1e3
A695 - Blaydon Flyover - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.96530 ... a=!3m1!1e3
A688 - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.69690 ... a=!3m1!1e3

Really don't have a clue what the plans were for the last 3 as there's no realistic route for any of them to take without demolition.
See Newcastle Motorway Plans
https://pathetic.org.uk/unbuilt/newcast ... _motorway/
https://www.roads.org.uk/sites/default/ ... n_tyne.pdf

BOH
Member
Posts: 91
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2016 14:19

Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by BOH » Sun Sep 26, 2021 20:58

Two I can think of:

A303 near Stonehenge (Countess Roundabout)
Inside Stansted Airport, near to where the Mid-Stay Car Park / BP Garage is

User avatar
Truvelo
Member
Posts: 16620
Joined: Wed May 29, 2002 21:10
Location: Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by Truvelo » Sun Sep 26, 2021 21:58

jabbaboy wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 21:04
There's quite a few in the Newcastle area.

A192/A189 - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.10478 ... a=!3m1!1e3
Forgot about that one. I also have the original plan for it.
Attachments
cramlington.jpg
How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
Big and complex.

Chris56000
Member
Posts: 842
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2002 21:16
Location: Oakengates, Telford

Re: Junctions that are Incomplete / that left space for a flyover

Post by Chris56000 » Mon Sep 27, 2021 00:35

Hi!

A69, Bridge End and Styford – the underpass scheme at Bridge End is well on the way to completion but the A69 Styford flyover is bogged down in stupid objections over the Newton gap and now may not get done at all!

Both opened in 1976 with eventual provision for grade separation that took almost 44 years to start!

Chris Williams

Post Reply