How does a town become a village?

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ajuk
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Re: How does a town become a village?

Post by ajuk » Sat Sep 25, 2021 01:44

M4Simon wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 13:21
fras wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:44
Is the title of this thread deliberately the other way round to the content ?
I don't think so - it is about towns that are no longer large or important in their area and are more like villages.
I guess I'm asking was there a point at which Castle Combe (for example) formally reverted from a town into a village, or is it still technically a town but not refereed to as such.

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Re: How does a town become a village?

Post by Chris Bertram » Sat Sep 25, 2021 08:22

KeithW wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 00:11
Chris Bertram wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 17:58
Education is usually a county function, where such a body exists. In the days of Cleveland County Council, it made no difference whether the pupils lived in Middlesbrough or Langbaurgh, as it was then called, as they all lived in the same county.
It didnt make any difference before that. Nunthorpe and Marton both came under North Yorkshire.
Well, there was Teesside county borough in between ... but when I went to school in Guisborough (which never was in Teesside), they were stíll using up stocks of exercise books from North Riding County Council.
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Re: How does a town become a village?

Post by Herned » Sat Sep 25, 2021 09:35

ajuk wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 01:44
I guess I'm asking was there a point at which Castle Combe (for example) formally reverted from a town into a village, or is it still technically a town but not refereed to as such.
Presumably that happened when local government was reorganised at various points? For example, the Wikipedia article about Ilchester says that it's town council was dissolved in 1889. That must have formally happened elsewhere. Then there are other places like Wiveliscombe in Somerset which still calls itself a town and has a town council but only has a population of 2000. I suspect the answer is that there is no single answer and like so much of our history has been haphazard

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Re: How does a town become a village?

Post by KeithW » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:11

Herned wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 09:35
ajuk wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 01:44
I guess I'm asking was there a point at which Castle Combe (for example) formally reverted from a town into a village, or is it still technically a town but not refereed to as such.
Presumably that happened when local government was reorganised at various points? For example, the Wikipedia article about Ilchester says that it's town council was dissolved in 1889. That must have formally happened elsewhere. Then there are other places like Wiveliscombe in Somerset which still calls itself a town and has a town council but only has a population of 2000. I suspect the answer is that there is no single answer and like so much of our history has been haphazard
There have been several reorganisations with country wide changes starting with the Local Government Reform Act of 1972. The then labour Government implemented them from 1974 onwards

In our case the village I lived in (Marton) was in the North Riding of Yorkshire but found ourselves now in the non Metropolitan County of Cleveland.

That lasted until 1996 when Cleveland County was abolished on the advice of the Banham Commission and we were given over to the tender care of the new and expanded Unitary Authority of Middlesbrough.

In terms of local infrastructure including roads this was catastrophic because although Middlesbrough and Stockton-on-Tees worked well together Redcar and Cleveland was allowed to expand into areas like Nunthorpe that was by any sensible measure better off as part of either Middlesbrough or North Yorkshire. The result was no new or improved roads were built from then on. So we have 2020 levels of traffic on an S2 road that is basically the same as it was in 1960.

The planned Middlesbrough eastern bypass was never built and now cannot be as Redcar and Cleveland Council allowed housing to be built blocking the route. The result is that the S2 A172 now carries a traffic load of around 22,000 vehicles a day. It is now 10.40 on a Saturday morning - a relatively quiet day but the traffic queue is over 800 m long. On a typical weekday afternoon it can queue all the way back to James Cook Hospital which is 2 miles away. 4 years ago when a neighbour had a heart attack the only way the paramedics could get her to the hospital quickly was to send the air ambulance. The phenomenon now has its own name - The Marton Crawl.

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Re: How does a town become a village?

Post by jgharston » Sat Sep 25, 2021 13:07

Vierwielen wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 18:42
It should be noted that the Americans have a totally different concept of a "city" - in fact I once saw Hartley Wespall given the status of "city" is an American publication on how to run a genealogy package. You will notice that I have not included its county - if it is a city, we all know where it is.
In many US states a "city" is a legeslative classification, any local authority that has been incorporated seperate from the county it is in/surrounded by. Which is how you get things like City Of Lost Springs, Wyoming, pop 1.

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Re: How does a town become a village?

Post by trickstat » Sat Sep 25, 2021 17:48

Herned wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 09:35
ajuk wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 01:44
I guess I'm asking was there a point at which Castle Combe (for example) formally reverted from a town into a village, or is it still technically a town but not refereed to as such.
Presumably that happened when local government was reorganised at various points? For example, the Wikipedia article about Ilchester says that it's town council was dissolved in 1889. That must have formally happened elsewhere. Then there are other places like Wiveliscombe in Somerset which still calls itself a town and has a town council but only has a population of 2000. I suspect the answer is that there is no single answer and like so much of our history has been haphazard
I think whether somewhere is a town or a village tends to be the result of a mixture of history and geography. Looking at Wiveliscombe's history on Wikipedia it had a population of nearly 2000 over 200 years ago which would have made it a town. It would have had a market which people from neighbouring villages and farms would have come to for buying and selling stock and produce. Over time, it would probably have a bank and various shops of the kind that a village doesn't tend to have. Looking at a map it is probably still the most significant place within an area bounded by the A38/M5, A361, A396, A39 and A358 that looks to be larger than Rutland.

Meanwhile, while its population is only slightly smaller, Ilchester has probably become much less important as travel improved with Yeovil only about 5 miles south and Yeovilton and its Naval airbase just to the east and a number of other larger places also within a few miles.

Generally speaking, a village close to an established town or city that grows to over 10000 population will still tend not to be regarded as a town, while somewhere with a smaller population that is more isolated from larger settlements will often still be considered a town. Here in Herts, places like Abbots Langley, London Colney and Radlett are still classed as villages despite being larger in population than a town like Buntingford that is in a more sparsely populated area.

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Re: How does a town become a village?

Post by B1040 » Sat Sep 25, 2021 17:49

Thaxted and Long Melford seem to be other ones like Lavenham.

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the cheesecake man
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Re: How does a town become a village?

Post by the cheesecake man » Mon Sep 27, 2021 13:58

trickstat wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 17:48
Generally speaking, a village close to an established town or city that grows to over 10000 population will still tend not to be regarded as a town, while somewhere with a smaller population that is more isolated from larger settlements will often still be considered a town. Here in Herts, places like Abbots Langley, London Colney and Radlett are still classed as villages despite being larger in population than a town like Buntingford that is in a more sparsely populated area.
Yes I'd agree it's more about facilities than population. Once upon a time a town definitively had a regular market but a sufficient number and variety of shops probably count now. Shoreham claims to be the largest village with 20,000 residents. I've never been but a quick look on GSV seems to suggest it doesn't have as many shops as you'd expect for that population. Whereas Appleby has only 3,000 and few shops but still has a market hall with a regular market so reasonably still insists it's a town.

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Re: How does a town become a village?

Post by Chris Bertram » Mon Sep 27, 2021 14:28

the cheesecake man wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 13:58
trickstat wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 17:48
Generally speaking, a village close to an established town or city that grows to over 10000 population will still tend not to be regarded as a town, while somewhere with a smaller population that is more isolated from larger settlements will often still be considered a town. Here in Herts, places like Abbots Langley, London Colney and Radlett are still classed as villages despite being larger in population than a town like Buntingford that is in a more sparsely populated area.
Yes I'd agree it's more about facilities than population. Once upon a time a town definitively had a regular market but a sufficient number and variety of shops probably count now. Shoreham claims to be the largest village with 20,000 residents. I've never been but a quick look on GSV seems to suggest it doesn't have as many shops as you'd expect for that population. Whereas Appleby has only 3,000 and few shops but still has a market hall with a regular market so reasonably still insists it's a town.
Appleby was the historic county town of Westmorland, though when the county council was established, it was based in the larger town of Kendal.
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Re: How does a town become a village?

Post by KeithW » Mon Sep 27, 2021 14:51

the cheesecake man wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 13:58
Yes I'd agree it's more about facilities than population. Once upon a time a town definitively had a regular market but a sufficient number and variety of shops probably count now. Shoreham claims to be the largest village with 20,000 residents. I've never been but a quick look on GSV seems to suggest it doesn't have as many shops as you'd expect for that population. Whereas Appleby has only 3,000 and few shops but still has a market hall with a regular market so reasonably still insists it's a town.
Appleby is pretty remote from other towns where you can shop , basically it comes down to Brough or Penrith. Other remote settlements such as Kirkby Stephen or Alston are similar in having more shops per population, they become de facto regional shopping areas. If you want to see a crowded busy Appleby try going there when the horse fair is on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p308559S8Lc

Alston has a population of about 1200 and has a market cross and is a town the right to hold a market although this not regularly done.

That said grocery delivery services are now spreading into more remote areas. I know Tesco deliver in North Yorkshire from its supermarket in Stockton On Tees. This has put more pressure on local shops in Boosbeck, Loftus and Easington. When I visited Skye in 2015 I saw Tesco were delivering there and have now been joined by Asda.

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Re: How does a town become a village?

Post by Chris5156 » Mon Sep 27, 2021 16:16

the cheesecake man wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 13:58
Shoreham claims to be the largest village with 20,000 residents.
The Leeds suburb of Horsforth has also traditionally claimed that title. Shoreham looks for all the world like a town to me, and Horsforth looks like an outer suburban town centre. I guess it's more about projecting a certain image than anything else.

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Re: How does a town become a village?

Post by delinquentwoody » Mon Sep 27, 2021 20:55

Cottingham with a population of 17000 is regarded as one of England's largest villages but has many features of a small town. I think boundaries can be blurred sometimes.

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Re: How does a town become a village?

Post by Big L » Mon Sep 27, 2021 21:01

Why would a small town not decide to claim it is "Britain's largest village" to see if it drums up a few visitors that don't know about the various other places claiming the same thing?
Make poetry history.

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Re: How does a town become a village?

Post by the cheesecake man » Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:22

Big L wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 21:01
Why would a small town not decide to claim it is "Britain's largest village" to see if it drums up a few visitors that don't know about the various other places claiming the same thing?
Llanwrtyd Wells finds being the smallest town is more appealing, as befits a world championship venue. :lol: Alston prefers being the highest town, although Buxton also claims this. Neither could beat Flash to be Britain's highest village.

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Re: How does a town become a village?

Post by crb11 » Tue Sep 28, 2021 21:46

Doesn't Sheffield claim to be Britain's largest village? I'm not convinced it gets many tourists as a result, although I'd rather spend a week there than some of the beach places my wife wants to go on holiday.
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Re: How does a town become a village?

Post by Norfolktolancashire » Tue Sep 28, 2021 22:20

Vierwielen wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 18:45
In my view, the difference between a village and a hamlet is that a village must have four "ations" - in alphabetic order:

A place of damnation

A place of education

A place of recreation

A place of salvation.

I leave readers to work put what I mean.
Well my village doesn't have a Wetherspoons :)

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Re: How does a town become a village?

Post by Vierwielen » Wed Sep 29, 2021 21:14

Norfolktolancashire wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 22:20
Vierwielen wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 18:45
In my view, the difference between a village and a hamlet is that a village must have four "ations" - in alphabetic order:

A place of damnation

A place of education

A place of recreation

A place of salvation.

I leave readers to work put what I mean.
Well my village doesn't have a Wetherspoons :)
Doesn't have a Wetherspoons or doesn't have a pub? I checked St Merryn (population 1060) where my father was based in 1946 when he met my mother to see what the norm was for Cornwall. The internet told me - 2 pubs.

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Re: How does a town become a village?

Post by the cheesecake man » Wed Sep 29, 2021 21:53

crb11 wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 21:46
Doesn't Sheffield claim to be Britain's largest village?
Yes but only figuratively. No one believes it actually is a village. Although with the rate shops are closing it might be in a few years.
I'm not convinced it gets many tourists as a result,
It doesn't. The artificial ski slope closed ten years ago and The National Unpopular Centre for Music was a short-lived white elephant.
although I'd rather spend a week there than some of the beach places my wife wants to go on holiday.
If your wife wants a beach it's definitely not a good choice. You could take a swim in the canal but you might catch a weil disease.

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Re: How does a town become a village?

Post by KeithW » Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:41

Norfolktolancashire wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 22:20
Well my village doesn't have a Wetherspoons :)
I can say there is no Wetherspoons in Middlesbrough, the nearest are in Norton and Billingham north of the Tees and in Great Broughton south of the Tees. Locally in Marton we have 3 pubs, The Rudds Arms (Greene King), the Southern Cross (Greene King) and the Brunton Arms (Sam Smiths)

In North Yorkshire we have one rather well known Pub that is several miles from the nearest settlement, the Lion Inn on Blakey Ridge. Great place for Sunday lunch but booking ahead was advisable even before Covid-19. Considering it is at an elevation of over 1300 ft above sea level on an unclassified road and rather remote they must be doing something right.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.38842 ... 6656?hl=en

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Re: How does a town become a village?

Post by Norfolktolancashire » Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:53

Vierwielen wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 21:14
Norfolktolancashire wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 22:20
Vierwielen wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 18:45
In my view, the difference between a village and a hamlet is that a village must have four "ations" - in alphabetic order:

A place of damnation

A place of education

A place of recreation

A place of salvation.

I leave readers to work put what I mean.
Well my village doesn't have a Wetherspoons :)
Doesn't have a Wetherspoons or doesn't have a pub? I checked St Merryn (population 1060) where my father was based in 1946 when he met my mother to see what the norm was for Cornwall. The internet told me - 2 pubs.
I was being a bit tongue in cheek regarding being a pub that covers all four of those "ations"!

Cornwall of course has many villages with pubs, even some not owned by celebrity cooks!

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