Whatever happened to Expressways?

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KeithW
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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by KeithW » Fri Oct 15, 2021 14:50

Rambo wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 14:22
All of Runcorns' expressways are still listed as such on most modern maps. Weston Point, Southern, Bridgewater & Daresbury expressways. Also some signage too albeit some old https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3488341 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3454903 ... 384!8i8192
One of the problems we have is there is no definition of what an Expressway is or should be. Similar roads on Teesside include the A174 Cleveland Parkway which in many ways is I think closer to what I would consider an Expressway in that all the junctions along its length are grade separated and there are overbridges and underpasses for NMU traffic.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52890 ... 8192?hl=en

In the case of the A174 the old A174 was renumbered B1380 and is available for pedestrians and cyclists

The A19 between the A174 and Wynard was also built to a high standard. The junction with the A66 is a freeflow GSJ and it has TRO's to ban cyclists and pedestrians. As with the A174 the old river crossing and route to Billingham and Wynard is available using the A1032, New Road and the old Billingham bypass aka Wolviston Road

Another strategic road I am familiar with the A34 between the M40 and M4. That is much more problematic as it is basically an existing S2 road that was partly dualled online which has left lots of properties with direct access to the road and a number of flat junctions.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.74836 ... 8192?hl=en

NICK 647063
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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by NICK 647063 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 15:15

thomas417 wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 13:38
I always liked the concept of Expressways with the blue signs, and Ax(M) designation so sad to see they seem to have bitten the dust. It's quite a turn around as there were full press releases about how the A14(M) would be the first and then it was silently ditched.

Personally I still see the need for high quality routes to be highlighted, the fact the A64(M) in Leeds is more prominent than the A64 past York is just absurd.

I'd be happy for even just blue signs to be introduced for high quality routes and leave off the (M).
The A64(M) in Leeds is a motorway so going to be highlighted more than the A64 further on, it also handles similar amounts of traffic so not really that absurd, it’s a major road and a bypass around the very centre of Leeds.

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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by NICK 647063 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 15:17

KeithW wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 00:41
NICK 647063 wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 21:43
I’m not sure it is! If you look the A64 is shown right from Leeds city centre to Seamer it one of these clearer routes but not an E road, I’m not sure how these roads are selected but if you put google live traffic on and zoom out the traffic is shown on these routes for longer than the other A roads, A69 is also one of these but not A66 or A168/A19.
That is because the E roads are by definition long distance international routes. The E15 covers this route

Inverness – Perth – Edinburgh – Newcastle – London – Folkestone – Dover … Calais – Paris – Lyon – Orange – Narbonne – Girona – Barcelona – Tarragona – Castellón de la Plana – Valencia – Alicante – Murcia – Almería – Málaga – Algeciras
I think you haven’t read the full thread I was replying to someone saying certain roads stand out more on google maps when zoomed out and they suspected it was because these are E roads, I was simply pointing out this can’t be the case as the A64 is one of these clearer routes but not an E road, I understand the concept of E roads.

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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by Micro The Maniac » Fri Oct 15, 2021 16:02

solocle wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 13:44
Personally, I'd suggest a more radical solution.

Overnight redesignate HQDCs an Ax(M) road number.

However, treat these just like Spanish autovias. {snip}
Since I really dislike the (M) usage at present, never mind in this idea, and given that we don't use the E designations "officially" in the UK, we could use E for expressways...

Simple rules: E (or X) replaces A in the number...
Meanwhile you get an A14(M), A64(M), an A34(M) south of Oxford, and A303(M) from the M3 to Amesbury, A27(M) linking the A3(M) and M27, and onward toward Chichester. Much of the A2 and A3 become the A2(M) and A3(M), and a good chunk of the A1 becomes A1(M).
Thus E14, E64, E34, E303... then becoming Axx when E is no longer appropriate.

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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by Bryn666 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 16:43

Rambo wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 14:22
All of Runcorns' expressways are still listed as such on most modern maps. Weston Point, Southern, Bridgewater & Daresbury expressways. Also some signage too albeit some old https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3488341 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3454903 ... 384!8i8192
These are fundamentally the closest match to the DfT definition too. With the exception of the Bridgewater which has numerous at-grade and single carriageway sections.
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jackal
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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by jackal » Fri Oct 15, 2021 19:15

NICK 647063 wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 21:43
jackal wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 14:08
astondb9 wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 13:52
I've just noticed Google Maps has its own version of UK expressways, if you zoom out to show most of the country, you can see certain A roads are shown more clearly than others (A1, A14, A34, A55, A9). If you use cycling directions, they will avoid these roads where possible, but not walking strangely.
I think it's based on the E-road network, hence some low quality roads like the A1 in Northumberland and the Borders, the A9 in the Highlands, the A40 in Pembrokeshire, and A69 and A75 are included. Though there seem to be some extras as well.
I’m not sure it is! If you look the A64 is shown right from Leeds city centre to Seamer it one of these clearer routes but not an E road, I’m not sure how these roads are selected but if you put google live traffic on and zoom out the traffic is shown on these routes for longer than the other A roads, A69 is also one of these but not A66 or A168/A19.
As I said, it seems to be based on E roads but with some extras (like the A64). That explains your own example as the A69 is an E road but A66 and A19 aren't.

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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by KeithW » Fri Oct 15, 2021 22:45

Micro The Maniac wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 16:02

Since I really dislike the (M) usage at present, never mind in this idea, and given that we don't use the E designations "officially" in the UK, we could use E for expressways...

Simple rules: E (or X) replaces A in the number...
Meanwhile you get an A14(M), A64(M), an A34(M) south of Oxford, and A303(M) from the M3 to Amesbury, A27(M) linking the A3(M) and M27, and onward toward Chichester. Much of the A2 and A3 become the A2(M) and A3(M), and a good chunk of the A1 becomes A1(M).
Thus E14, E64, E34, E303... then becoming Axx when E is no longer appropriate.
Except for the minor fact that we dont actually have anything that meets those criteria. The reality is that the E18 includes part of the M1, A12, M2, A8(M), A8. A75, A74(M), M6, A689 and A69. Now are you suggesting we rename all or part of those roads E18 ?

Then there is the minor problem that the E14 actually runs from Trondheim, Norway to Sundsvall, Sweden.

At best we would do what is done in France and make Exx a supplementary number but given how ubiquitous satnav is these days why waste the time and money ?

If you want to drive from Greenock to Algeciras you enter those names into the satnav system and hopefully recognise there is a wet bit or two along the way :)

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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by Herned » Fri Oct 15, 2021 23:30

KeithW wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 22:45
Micro The Maniac wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 16:02

Since I really dislike the (M) usage at present, never mind in this idea, and given that we don't use the E designations "officially" in the UK, we could use E for expressways...

Simple rules: E (or X) replaces A in the number...
Meanwhile you get an A14(M), A64(M), an A34(M) south of Oxford, and A303(M) from the M3 to Amesbury, A27(M) linking the A3(M) and M27, and onward toward Chichester. Much of the A2 and A3 become the A2(M) and A3(M), and a good chunk of the A1 becomes A1(M).
Thus E14, E64, E34, E303... then becoming Axx when E is no longer appropriate.
Except for the minor fact that we dont actually have anything that meets those criteria. The reality is that the E18 includes part of the M1, A12, M2, A8(M), A8. A75, A74(M), M6, A689 and A69. Now are you suggesting we rename all or part of those roads E18 ?

Then there is the minor problem that the E14 actually runs from Trondheim, Norway to Sundsvall, Sweden.

At best we would do what is done in France and make Exx a supplementary number but given how ubiquitous satnav is these days why waste the time and money ?

If you want to drive from Greenock to Algeciras you enter those names into the satnav system and hopefully recognise there is a wet bit or two along the way :)
Perhaps reading the post would help? The poster is stating that as we don't sign E routes, we could use E as the expressway designation instead. So where the A14 meets expressway standard it becomes the E14, in similar fashion to the Ax(m) designation. Nothing to do with Trondheim

Personally I think the Ax(m) designation would be appropriate, and that it would make sense to sign HQDC as something separate to normal DC

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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by Owain » Sat Oct 16, 2021 07:36

Irrespective of how E-numbers are used in another context, I don't think there is much to be gained by adding a new kind of classification. There seem to be enough people who already get confused between the M1, A1 and A1(M) as it is (not to mention the "M1(A)", to which somebody on TV referred the other day).

If the govt ever actually gets around to building any of these roads, there are likely to be so few of them that there really isn't any point in inventing a new designation. I don't like the Ax(M) form of classification, but as we've got it and there doesn't seem to be much chance of it ever disappearing, it would make more sense to stick with it than to invent a new category that would be used along side it.
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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by Micro The Maniac » Sat Oct 16, 2021 08:29

Owain wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 07:36
I don't like the Ax(M) form of classification, but as we've got it and there doesn't seem to be much chance of it ever disappearing, it would make more sense to stick with it than to invent a new category that would be used along side it.
(M) denotes motorway... expressways are not motorways. If people don't like E then (X) - that is at least consistent with the use of (T) in the past.

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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by KeithW » Sat Oct 16, 2021 09:52

jackal wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 19:15

As I said, it seems to be based on E roads but with some extras (like the A64). That explains your own example as the A69 is an E road but A66 and A19 aren't.
For the very simple reason that at the time those designation were made in the 1970's neither the A66 nor the A19 met the required standards which were.
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=E_Roads wrote: The following design standards should be applied to E-roads unless there are exceptional circumstances (such as mountain passes etc):

Units listed in metric first as per standards, Imperial conversions to nearest appropriate unit.
The roads should be homogeneous and be designed for at least 100 km/h (62 mph).

Gradients should not exceed 8% on roads designed for 60 km/h (37 mph), decreasing to 4% on roads designed for 120 km/h (74 mph) traffic.

The radius of curved sections of road should not exceed 120 m (393 feet) on roads designed for 60 km/h (37 mph) rising to 1000 m (3280 feet) on roads designed for 140 km/h (87 mph).

Stopping distance visibility should be at least 70 m (230 feet) on roads designed for 60 km/h (37 mph), rising to 300 m (984 feet) on roads designed for 140 km/h (87 mph).

Lane width should be at least 3.5 m (11 feet 6 inches) on straight sections of road.

The hard shoulder should be at least 2.5 m (8 feet 2 inches) on ordinary roads and 3.25 m (10 feet 8 inches) on motorways.

Central reservations should be at least 3 m (9 feet 10 inches) unless there is a barrier between the two carriageways.

Overhead clearance should be not less than 4.5 m (14 feet 9 inches)
Now I remember the old A66 very well especially the climb up to Bowes Moor, I also remember the old route of the A19 winding its way through Yarm, Eaglescliffe, Stockton High Street, Norton, Billingham, Easington, Sunderland and South Shields. In the 1970's if I drove to Stranraer from Middlesbrough in the winter months my route was A1083, A19, A1(M), A689, A695, A69

This is the route the A168 from Thirsk to the A1 at Dishforth at the time.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.17796 ... 8192?hl=en

The S2 A66 onto Bowes Moor was all too often blocked by a stalled or snowbound truck. Just here if you were lucky , this is one of the remaining sections of the old road and there were all too often trucks pulled over to cool down after the climb.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.51108 ... 6656?hl=en

From the SABRE Wiki: E Roads :


The International E-road network is a system of roads across Europe and the former Soviet Union. It is co-ordinated by the Economic Commission for Europe, a United Nations agency. The original agreement was drawn up in 1950 and has been modified several times since then. The agreement specifies:

· The numbering convention

· The routes to be used

· The quality of roads to be used


After a major re-organisation of the road numbers in 1975 (implemented 1983), the basis for

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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by Owain » Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:00

Micro The Maniac wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 08:29
Owain wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 07:36
I don't like the Ax(M) form of classification, but as we've got it and there doesn't seem to be much chance of it ever disappearing, it would make more sense to stick with it than to invent a new category that would be used along side it.
(M) denotes motorway... expressways are not motorways. If people don't like E then (X) - that is at least consistent with the use of (T) in the past.
Indeed not, but they could be if the govt chose to designate them as such.
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