Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

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Herned
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Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Herned » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:04

Vierwielen wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 22:47
Possibly the M25 could have been named the M0. :D
Of course three of Europe's capital cities did exactly that so it's not without precedent

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Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by SBRoxMan » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:06

Herned wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:04
Vierwielen wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 22:47
Possibly the M25 could have been named the M0. :D
Of course three of Europe's capital cities did exactly that so it's not without precedent
Which capital cities are those?

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Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by c2R » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:21

Budapest and Brussels are two, I'm not sure what the third is...
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Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by wrinkly » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:35

Steven wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:03
Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:53
The original M602 of course only got as far as Eccles anyway, the eastwards connection to Regent Road was much later.
Though for clarity, the M52 South Lancashire Motorway was planned to have its eastern terminus on the A56 at a flat roundabout junction; the present A57(M) underpass was a later addition and not part of the original plans.

The M602 to Eccles was just Stage I.
The original end of the M602 at J2 is close to what was the boundary between Eccles MB (which came under Lancashire CC) and Salford CB. That may have been a factor in ending it there for the time being. Other relevant factors may have been the tolerable quality of the A57 east of Eccles, and the fact that building the Eccles bypass first enabled the key interchanges in the motorway network to be completed.

The eastward extension came at a time when there was a government push to improve roads to ports - but also at a time when the Salford/Manchester docks were declining in importance, soon to be turned into Salford Quays.

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Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Herned » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:41

c2R wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:21
Budapest and Brussels are two, I'm not sure what the third is...
Bucharest. Disappointingly Belgrade, Berne and Berlin didn't follow the others' lead

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Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Chris Bertram » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:51

c2R wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:21
Budapest and Brussels are two, I'm not sure what the third is...
Belgium gives ring roads "R" numbers regardless of standard, so some are full motorway and some are single-carriageway all-purpose affairs. Brussels' ring road is R0, most of it is motorway, however one part on the eastern side of the city appears to br AP DC according to my Michelin road atlas of Benelux.
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Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Euan » Fri Oct 15, 2021 19:28

The Czech Republic has a D0 motorway forming a partial ring road around Prague, similar to the M0 around Budapest in Hungary. So yes, it certainly wouldn’t be completely unprecedented to have an M0 around London. There are of course other examples throughout Europe of this sort of idea mentioned upthread. It seems to have more appeal in countries with a road system centralised around a capital which sits somewhere that is geographically convenient for the country as a whole.
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Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by exiled » Fri Oct 15, 2021 20:07

Chris Bertram wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:51
c2R wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:21
Budapest and Brussels are two, I'm not sure what the third is...
Belgium gives ring roads "R" numbers regardless of standard, so some are full motorway and some are single-carriageway all-purpose affairs. Brussels' ring road is R0, most of it is motorway, however one part on the eastern side of the city appears to br AP DC according to my Michelin road atlas of Benelux.
The SE section of the R0 both in Flanders and Wallonia is not motorway.
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Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Owain » Sat Oct 16, 2021 07:15

Chris Bertram wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 17:35
Let's look over the channel. The Paris outer orbital, La Francilienne, is A/N104, the ring road is A86, and the inner ring is simply the Boulevard Péripherique, and doesn't have a number at all.
It could be argued that the Péripherique doesn't really merit a number at all, because the highest speed that can be achieved is about walking pace.
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Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Chris5156 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 07:43

Owain wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 07:15
Chris Bertram wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 17:35
Let's look over the channel. The Paris outer orbital, La Francilienne, is A/N104, the ring road is A86, and the inner ring is simply the Boulevard Péripherique, and doesn't have a number at all.
It could be argued that the Péripherique doesn't really merit a number at all, because the highest speed that can be achieved is about walking pace.
That might qualify it for a number in the GR series?

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Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Owain » Sat Oct 16, 2021 08:04

Chris5156 wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 07:43
Owain wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 07:15
Chris Bertram wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 17:35
Let's look over the channel. The Paris outer orbital, La Francilienne, is A/N104, the ring road is A86, and the inner ring is simply the Boulevard Péripherique, and doesn't have a number at all.
It could be argued that the Péripherique doesn't really merit a number at all, because the highest speed that can be achieved is about walking pace.
That might qualify it for a number in the GR series?
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Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Vierwielen » Sat Oct 16, 2021 09:38

Owain wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 07:15
Chris Bertram wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 17:35
Let's look over the channel. The Paris outer orbital, La Francilienne, is A/N104, the ring road is A86, and the inner ring is simply the Boulevard Péripherique, and doesn't have a number at all.
It could be argued that the Péripherique doesn't really merit a number at all, because the highest speed that can be achieved is about walking pace.
IMHO, the Péripherique has more in common with the North Circular (aka A405)/South Circular (aka A205) than with the M25.

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Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Vierwielen » Sat Oct 16, 2021 09:47

exiled wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 20:07
Chris Bertram wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:51
c2R wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:21
Budapest and Brussels are two, I'm not sure what the third is...
Belgium gives ring roads "R" numbers regardless of standard, so some are full motorway and some are single-carriageway all-purpose affairs. Brussels' ring road is R0, most of it is motorway, however one part on the eastern side of the city appears to br AP DC according to my Michelin road atlas of Benelux.
The SE section of the R0 both in Flanders and Wallonia is not motorway.
So if we were to adopt that custom, the M25 would be the R0(M), the M60 would be the R1(M) and the M42/M6(toll)/A460/A449/A491/A38 would be the R2, R2(M) or R2(T) depending on the type of road.

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Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Steven » Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:07

Vierwielen wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 09:47
the M42/M6(toll)/A460/A449/A491/A38 would be the R2, R2(M) or R2(T) depending on the type of road.
Err, no. The M6/M5/M42 would be the route numbered around Birmingham because that's the box around the city.
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Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Vierwielen » Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:17

Steven wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:07
Vierwielen wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 09:47
the M42/M6(toll)/A460/A449/A491/A38 would be the R2, R2(M) or R2(T) depending on the type of road.
Err, no. The M6/M5/M42 would be the route numbered around Birmingham because that's the box around the city.
That depends whether we are talking about a route with the North/South Circular functionality of a route with the M25 functionality.

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Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Steven » Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:31

Vierwielen wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:17
Steven wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:07
Vierwielen wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 09:47
the M42/M6(toll)/A460/A449/A491/A38 would be the R2, R2(M) or R2(T) depending on the type of road.
Err, no. The M6/M5/M42 would be the route numbered around Birmingham because that's the box around the city.
That depends whether we are talking about a route with the North/South Circular functionality of a route with the M25 functionality.
Not really. It's making the classic error of including huge areas that are functionally separate - for example, you're choosing to go right through an important city centre!

The M42/M5/M6 box is the M25 equivalent, with the Circular equivalent being the A4540. The M5 is basically the western edge of where the influence of Birmingham fades out - only a tiny bit is even in the Birmingham Travel to Work Area; whilst the eastern side of the M42 is only just inside the TTWA. It's similar to how the majority of the M25 is within the London TTWA, and not miles outside.
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Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by exiled » Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:20

Owain wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 07:15
Chris Bertram wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 17:35
Let's look over the channel. The Paris outer orbital, La Francilienne, is A/N104, the ring road is A86, and the inner ring is simply the Boulevard Péripherique, and doesn't have a number at all.
It could be argued that the Péripherique doesn't really merit a number at all, because the highest speed that can be achieved is about walking pace.
The BP seems not to have a number because it appears to be sui generis, under its own rules, in the French Code de la Route, a Parisian boulevard with some motorway characteristics. The other Pérépheriques have mostly RN numbers with a few RD or A classifications.
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Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Chris5156 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 16:38

Vierwielen wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 09:47
So if we were to adopt that custom, the M25 would be the R0(M), the M60 would be the R1(M) and the M42/M6(toll)/A460/A449/A491/A38 would be the R2, R2(M) or R2(T) depending on the type of road.
In what world is that collection of roads considered to function as a single ring road? :shock:

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Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by Bryn666 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 17:09

Chris5156 wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 16:38
Vierwielen wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 09:47
So if we were to adopt that custom, the M25 would be the R0(M), the M60 would be the R1(M) and the M42/M6(toll)/A460/A449/A491/A38 would be the R2, R2(M) or R2(T) depending on the type of road.
In what world is that collection of roads considered to function as a single ring road? :shock:
It wouldn't. In Belgium R routes are often not full rings. Antwerp is a good example where R2 is a corner cut and nothing else.
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Re: Why are some Motorways numbered similar to A roads the replaced and others not?

Post by exiled » Sat Oct 16, 2021 19:54

Bryn666 wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 17:09
Chris5156 wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 16:38
Vierwielen wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 09:47
So if we were to adopt that custom, the M25 would be the R0(M), the M60 would be the R1(M) and the M42/M6(toll)/A460/A449/A491/A38 would be the R2, R2(M) or R2(T) depending on the type of road.
In what world is that collection of roads considered to function as a single ring road? :shock:
It wouldn't. In Belgium R routes are often not full rings. Antwerp is a good example where R2 is a corner cut and nothing else.
And of course you also get the R9 in Charleroi that although a complete ring, is one way. The R roads of Belgium are basically what the old unitary state and now the three regions need them to be at any particular point on the space time continuum.
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