Philip's Navigator - much of Scotland shown at smaller scale!

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Sunil_of_Yoxley
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Philip's Navigator - much of Scotland shown at smaller scale!

Post by Sunil_of_Yoxley » Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:41

A few weeks back, got a copy of the latest (Nov 2020) edition of the Philip's Navigator Atlas via Amazon, as an alternative to the 2022 A-Z GB atlas I bought back in May. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=42561&p=1188355&hilit=2022#p1188355

All seems great for much of GB, with all GSJs shown in detail as opposed to "blobs" for a significant number in the A-Z.

But... but... the whole of Scotland north of Dunblane is shown at a smaller scale (3 miles to 1 inch as opposed to 1.5 miles), and therefore all GSJs in and between Dundee, Perth and Aberdeen are shown as blobs!

Very disappointing!
Last edited by Sunil_of_Yoxley on Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Philip's Navigator - much of Scotland shown at smaller scale!

Post by Bryn666 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:47

Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:41
A few weeks back, got a copy of the latest (Nov 2020) edition of the Philip's Navigator Atlas via Amazon, as an alternative to the 2022 A-Z GB atlas I bought back in June.

All seems great for much of GB, with all GSJs shown in detail as opposed to "blobs" for a significant number in the A-Z.

But... but... the whole of Scotland north of Dunblane is shown at a smaller scale (3 miles to 1 inch as opposed to 1.5 miles), and therefore all GSJs in and between Dundee, Perth and Aberdeen are shown as blobs!

Very disappointing!
The Navigators have always done this, because of the lack of anything in much of rural northern Scotland. I'd have thought they'd be able to to provide a 1.5 inch scale for the urban areas though?
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Re: Philip's Navigator - much of Scotland shown at smaller scale!

Post by Truvelo » Thu Oct 14, 2021 15:06

I had a 2000 edition. In addition to the smaller scale in northern Scotland it also had a few errors with the GSJ layouts. Chain Bar was shown with slip roads between the M606 and M62 east which were never built.
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Re: Philip's Navigator - much of Scotland shown at smaller scale!

Post by Was92now625 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 20:45

There used to be a LOT of maps / atlases etc guilty of this. Fewer now but it's disappointing when it happens.

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Re: Philip's Navigator - much of Scotland shown at smaller scale!

Post by exiled » Sat Oct 16, 2021 17:15

Collins certainly has been doing it for years, with the most recent I have having a smaller scale.
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Re: Philip's Navigator - much of Scotland shown at smaller scale!

Post by Euan » Sun Oct 17, 2021 08:21

This is something I am familiar with in some atlases. Normally I read AA road atlases which show the Highlands at the same scale as places further south, although I think in almost any atlas you will find the Northern and Western Isles at a separate scale in order to fit them onto their own pages with their sparse populations.
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Re: Philip's Navigator - much of Scotland shown at smaller scale!

Post by Was92now625 » Sun Oct 17, 2021 13:12

Anyone from Shetland ? I remember reading of objections to some maps (single maps as opposed to atlases) putting Shetland in an inset in the Moray Firth.

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Re: Philip's Navigator - much of Scotland shown at smaller scale!

Post by orudge » Sun Oct 17, 2021 13:27

It’s now law that Scottish public bodies must avoid putting Shetland in a box:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... s-45733111

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Re: Philip's Navigator - much of Scotland shown at smaller scale!

Post by Glen » Sun Oct 17, 2021 13:33

Was92now625 wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 13:12
Anyone from Shetland ? I remember reading of objections to some maps (single maps as opposed to atlases) putting Shetland in an inset in the Moray Firth.
Public bodies are no longer allowed to show Shetland in an inset when showing maps of Scotland.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-43574298

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Re: Philip's Navigator - much of Scotland shown at smaller scale!

Post by Big L » Sun Oct 17, 2021 14:36

The answer is to have a map of Shetland with the rest of Scotland/GB/UK in an 'inset'.
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Re: Philip's Navigator - much of Scotland shown at smaller scale!

Post by Bryn666 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 13:39

orudge wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 13:27
It’s now law that Scottish public bodies must avoid putting Shetland in a box:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... s-45733111
How exactly is one meant to show Scotland on a plan at a reasonable scale if the massive gap between the mainland and Shetland is enforced then?

Do we do the same for the Isle of Man next? The Channel Islands?

The whole POINT of a map is they're a REPRESENTATION of an area, and that has to be clear to the reader to understand what's being represented. *screams into void*
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Re: Philip's Navigator - much of Scotland shown at smaller scale!

Post by orudge » Mon Oct 18, 2021 13:49

It's notable that most of the comments on that BBC article were rather sceptical about this law, and map-makers came out against it too. I can understand why it may annoy people (Orkney was often put into boxes or simply skipped off maps entirely too) but having a massive pile of white/blue space isn't particularly useful either.

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Re: Philip's Navigator - much of Scotland shown at smaller scale!

Post by wrinkly » Mon Oct 18, 2021 14:01

Glen wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 13:33
Public bodies are no longer allowed to show Shetland in an inset when showing maps of Scotland.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-43574298
Hard luck for Network Rail, say, with no tracks in Orkney or Shetland.

What about St Kilda? or Rockall?

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Re: Philip's Navigator - much of Scotland shown at smaller scale!

Post by exiled » Mon Oct 18, 2021 15:04

Remember section 17 of the Islands (Scotland) Act, the Shetland Mapping Requirement, only applies to the Scottish Government, Scottish Local government, and Scottish public bodies with a devolved competence, and only then for when there is a whole map of Scotland. Network Rail and ScotRail would not be required to put the islands on their network maps as they are not a whole map of Scotland, indeed are only a stylised rendition of the bits of Scotland on GB.
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Re: Philip's Navigator - much of Scotland shown at smaller scale!

Post by trickstat » Mon Oct 18, 2021 17:10

I can imagine what a map of the USA would be like if they had a similar rule. All that Pacific Ocean you would have to show to the east of Hawaii and all that Canada between the 'Lower 48' and Alaska!

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Re: Philip's Navigator - much of Scotland shown at smaller scale!

Post by exiled » Mon Oct 18, 2021 18:42

trickstat wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 17:10
I can imagine what a map of the USA would be like if they had a similar rule. All that Pacific Ocean you would have to show to the east of Hawaii and all that Canada between the 'Lower 48' and Alaska!
Most government maps of Greece, Italy, and Spain are the same, the islands are in their geographic locations. The Scottish situation, that once again only applies to Scottish public bodies as part of an act, the Islands (Scotland) Act 2018 which is there so that the islands' needs are taken into account, and not to reserved bodies or the commercial sector.
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Re: Philip's Navigator - much of Scotland shown at smaller scale!

Post by TS » Thu Oct 21, 2021 18:43

Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:41
A few weeks back, got a copy of the latest (Nov 2020) edition of the Philip's Navigator Atlas via Amazon, as an alternative to the 2022 A-Z GB atlas I bought back in May. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=42561&p=1188355&hilit=2022#p1188355

All seems great for much of GB, with all GSJs shown in detail as opposed to "blobs" for a significant number in the A-Z.

But... but... the whole of Scotland north of Dunblane is shown at a smaller scale (3 miles to 1 inch as opposed to 1.5 miles), and therefore all GSJs in and between Dundee, Perth and Aberdeen are shown as blobs!

Very disappointing!
To be fair, at the scale of the Navigator it would be pointless for much of the Highlands; you would have some pages with barely any placenames on it. So I think what they do is sensible.

It seems very counterintuitive, though, that they now have Shetland on pages 312-313 and then Orkney on pages 314-315. Surely that should be the other way around, as it always was!

My biggest gripe though is that they only do the spiral and not the spined version.

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Re: Philip's Navigator - much of Scotland shown at smaller scale!

Post by Sunil_of_Yoxley » Fri Oct 22, 2021 20:48

TS wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 18:43
Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:41
A few weeks back, got a copy of the latest (Nov 2020) edition of the Philip's Navigator Atlas via Amazon, as an alternative to the 2022 A-Z GB atlas I bought back in May. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=42561&p=1188355&hilit=2022#p1188355

All seems great for much of GB, with all GSJs shown in detail as opposed to "blobs" for a significant number in the A-Z.

But... but... the whole of Scotland north of Dunblane is shown at a smaller scale (3 miles to 1 inch as opposed to 1.5 miles), and therefore all GSJs in and between Dundee, Perth and Aberdeen are shown as blobs!

Very disappointing!
To be fair, at the scale of the Navigator it would be pointless for much of the Highlands; you would have some pages with barely any placenames on it. So I think what they do is sensible.

It seems very counterintuitive, though, that they now have Shetland on pages 312-313 and then Orkney on pages 314-315. Surely that should be the other way around, as it always was!

My biggest gripe though is that they only do the spiral and not the spined version.
But not sensible for the A90 corridor from Perth to Dundee to Aberdeen, with quite a few GSJs on offer.

Just seen that there is an up-to-date Scotland-only Navigator available, but it too shows everything north of Dunblane at a smaller, less detailed scale!
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Re: Philip's Navigator - much of Scotland shown at smaller scale!

Post by exiled » Fri Oct 22, 2021 20:56

Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 20:48

But not sensible for the A90 corridor from Perth to Dundee to Aberdeen, with quite a few GSJs on offer.

Just seen that there is an up-to-date Scotland-only Navigator available, but it too shows everything north of Dunblane at a smaller, less detailed scale!
One thing I like about the Collins mapping is that the north and isles is that it appears to have been put together at the same size as the rest of the maps, and only then shrunk, rather than being mapped at a lower scale to begin with.
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