Cyclops junctions

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

B1040
Member
Posts: 1890
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 15:51
Location: fenland

Cyclops junctions

Post by B1040 » Thu Oct 21, 2021 18:59

So we're getting a new CYCLOPS junction in Cambridge- on my cycle commute.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cambri ... 893444.amp

I've been watching it unfold, and I'm a bit mystified.
When I'm turning left, I think I can ignore the lights and just head down the continuous cycle lane, but I'm not sure.
When I'm turning right, I've always been OK with following the same rules as cars. Now, there's an orbital cycle lane, but who gives way to whom? There are single fat broken lines on the edge of the bike lane. Are they giving cyclists priority?
If they do, motorised vehicle flow will be reduced and I will be scared of misunderstandings ( no signs yet). If cars get right of way, I could have to give way 4 times on my way round the junction.
If I don't understand it, will other users?
Normal right turn for me I think.

User avatar
JammyDodge
Member
Posts: 240
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 13:17

Re: Cyclops junctions

Post by JammyDodge » Thu Oct 21, 2021 19:13

I think these videos may help in understanding how these types of junctions work:
https://youtu.be/7FBncwFDVHk
https://youtu.be/kqAPbmBWgMw
Designing Tomorrow, Around the Past

crb11
Member
Posts: 1630
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 21:35
Location: Cambridge

Re: Cyclops junctions

Post by crb11 » Thu Oct 21, 2021 21:27

B1040 wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 18:59
So we're getting a new CYCLOPS junction in Cambridge- on my cycle commute.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cambri ... 893444.amp

I've been watching it unfold, and I'm a bit mystified.
When I'm turning left, I think I can ignore the lights and just head down the continuous cycle lane, but I'm not sure.
When I'm turning right, I've always been OK with following the same rules as cars. Now, there's an orbital cycle lane, but who gives way to whom? There are single fat broken lines on the edge of the bike lane. Are they giving cyclists priority?
If they do, motorised vehicle flow will be reduced and I will be scared of misunderstandings ( no signs yet). If cars get right of way, I could have to give way 4 times on my way round the junction.
If I don't understand it, will other users?
Normal right turn for me I think.
I used this one last night (turning right from Histon Road into Gilbert Road). Turning left, you're correct, although I think you have to give way to cyclists already on the lane (like a standard roundabout). Turning right, you're effectively crossing the road at two signalised crossings where cars get right of way, so I make it three give ways: for the right turn I did, to cyclists already in the lane, to cars at the entrance to Warwick Road, and to cars on Histon Road at the north side of the junction. How are you getting four?

I'm not sure whether this one actually needs signs that it's special - there's a discussion going on in the Cambridge Cycle Campaign which is split about 50/50 on the subject - as at least for cars, nothing has changed. Personally I would prefer to be turning right as normal, but the issue is finding a safe point to get off the separate cycle lane onto the main road. (Not the only case where this is a problem: I also regularly need to turn right from Arbury Road into Campkin Road, and the similar segregation makes it almost impossible to do sensibly if the cars in your direction have a green light when you reach the junction.)
[real name Colin]

B1040
Member
Posts: 1890
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 15:51
Location: fenland

Re: Cyclops junctions

Post by B1040 » Thu Oct 21, 2021 21:35

JammyDodge wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 19:13
I think these videos may help in understanding how these types of junctions work:
https://youtu.be/7FBncwFDVHk
https://youtu.be/kqAPbmBWgMw
Thanks for posting these.
I don't think that there are any little lights for cyclists at the Cambidge junction yet. The lights don't have a phase for cyclists as far as I can see.
The second video is unrealistic as there are almost no waits, and almost no other traffic. My concern is how this junction will perform on a busy (overloaded pre covid during rush hour) urban junction where impatient people may well make assumptions about priorities.

B1040
Member
Posts: 1890
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 15:51
Location: fenland

Re: Cyclops junctions

Post by B1040 » Thu Oct 21, 2021 21:41

crb11 wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 21:27


I make it three give ways: for the right turn I did, to cyclists already in the lane, to cars at the entrance to Warwick Road, and to cars on Histon Road at the north side of the junction. How are you getting four?

I was counting each direction on each road.
So if turning right from Gilbert Road to Histon Road (N)
Clash 1, with traffic turning left off Gilbert Road may lead to
Clash 2 lights have changed and traffic heading North up Histon Road so I don't cross but if the lights change again I end up clashing with
3 Traffic heading from Gilbert Road -> Warwick road (light flow) and
4 Traffic coming out of Warwick Road.
and that wasn't even taking other cyclists into account.

I may be overthinking and catastrophising.
I agree that turning right off Histon Road is probably the hardest manoeuvre.
Pre road works cyclists turning right off the southbound Histon Road tended to cross before the junction.

User avatar
jervi
Member
Posts: 1308
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:29
Location: Lincoln / Haywards Heath

Re: Cyclops junctions

Post by jervi » Thu Oct 21, 2021 23:16

CYCLOPS means Cycle Optimised Protected Signals.
So for a junction to be a CYCLOPS junction, it has to have cycles protected from motor vehicles using signals, as well as being optimised for cycles (by only requiring cycles to stop at fewest signals as possible instead of using 4 toucans to make a right turn).
If what is being proposed doesn't protect & optimise cyclists, then it isn't a CYCLOPS junction.

CYCLOPS junctions are typically used at a standard signalised crossroads, however can be adapted to allow for bespoke junction layouts.
A CYCLOPS junction will allow left turns without signals for cyclists, and aheads/rights would be made on a dedicated all-green pedestrians & cycle phase.
http://www.jctconsultancy.co.uk/Symposi ... 20TFGM.pdf This document is quite helpful at seeing how they can be Incorporated into all sorts of layouts.

CYCLOPS shouldn't impact a huge amount on motor vehicle traffic, as all cycles and pedestrians can share the same green light phase, allowing the rest of the time to be used solely for motor vehicles with most cyclists removed (some cyclists may still prefer to use the main carriageway for ahead/right since it may be quicker).

User avatar
Bryn666
Member
Posts: 31919
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54

Re: Cyclops junctions

Post by Bryn666 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 01:39

The ones up here haven't caused any confusion and just this week Bolton has opened a very complex one, and the sky hasn't fallen in.

It's quite simple, the circulatory track for cyclists is signal controlled so if you want to have a safe passage through the junction you just follow it in a clockwise direction. If you prefer to ride on the road nothing is stopping you but why put yourself at a pointless risk of being hit by a vehicle when you can have a protected turn stage?
Bryn
Traffic/Road Safety Dogsbody and General Grumpy Now-a-Thirtysomething Man
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/

Al__S
Member
Posts: 469
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:56

Re: Cyclops junctions

Post by Al__S » Fri Oct 22, 2021 07:19

As the Camcycle blog post shows, there's three phases to the lights- a north/south general traffic, east/west general traffic, and cycle/pedestrian one.

Riding through for the first time yesterday I found that the cycle phase has plenty of time, even pausing for a pedestrian at one of the corner mini-zebras, to have made the right turn in a single phase. But then if it did bother you, there's ye olde Advanced Stop Line boxes anyway, though I appreciate that in heavier traffic merging out to be able to access those if traffic is moving may be iffy

User avatar
solocle
Member
Posts: 307
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 18:27

Re: Cyclops junctions

Post by solocle » Fri Oct 22, 2021 08:04

Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 01:39
The ones up here haven't caused any confusion and just this week Bolton has opened a very complex one, and the sky hasn't fallen in.

It's quite simple, the circulatory track for cyclists is signal controlled so if you want to have a safe passage through the junction you just follow it in a clockwise direction. If you prefer to ride on the road nothing is stopping you but why put yourself at a pointless risk of being hit by a vehicle when you can have a protected turn stage?
Well, for the same reason for a lot of things - it's faster.

For instance, when I woke up quite late, and had an appointment at Forest Hill at 9am. So I took the road bike, as it was faster, and went the most direct route. But then I had a choice to make with the A40: do I use the shared use track, or the (NSL dual) carriageway?

As the speed difference would be the difference between being late and on time, I used the carriageway.

User avatar
skiddaw05
Member
Posts: 1798
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 21:33
Location: Norwich

Re: Cyclops junctions

Post by skiddaw05 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:26

The success of this sort of scheme must depend on the effectiveness of the signals. If, like some I've encountered, the cycle signal goes red when there is no other traffic about it just encourages non compliance or use of the carriageway instead

B1040
Member
Posts: 1890
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 15:51
Location: fenland

Re: Cyclops junctions

Post by B1040 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 14:14

I now see that there are lights for the cycle orbital route. I shall look at the options and what the average wait time is.
That right turn isn't the dodgiest part of my journey by a long stretch.

User avatar
Bryn666
Member
Posts: 31919
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54

Re: Cyclops junctions

Post by Bryn666 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 14:26

solocle wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 08:04
Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 01:39
The ones up here haven't caused any confusion and just this week Bolton has opened a very complex one, and the sky hasn't fallen in.

It's quite simple, the circulatory track for cyclists is signal controlled so if you want to have a safe passage through the junction you just follow it in a clockwise direction. If you prefer to ride on the road nothing is stopping you but why put yourself at a pointless risk of being hit by a vehicle when you can have a protected turn stage?
Well, for the same reason for a lot of things - it's faster.

For instance, when I woke up quite late, and had an appointment at Forest Hill at 9am. So I took the road bike, as it was faster, and went the most direct route. But then I had a choice to make with the A40: do I use the shared use track, or the (NSL dual) carriageway?

As the speed difference would be the difference between being late and on time, I used the carriageway.
I prefer being alive to being early.
Bryn
Traffic/Road Safety Dogsbody and General Grumpy Now-a-Thirtysomething Man
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/

User avatar
Chris5156
Member
Posts: 14970
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: Cyclops junctions

Post by Chris5156 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 15:06

Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 14:26
solocle wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 08:04
Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 01:39
The ones up here haven't caused any confusion and just this week Bolton has opened a very complex one, and the sky hasn't fallen in.

It's quite simple, the circulatory track for cyclists is signal controlled so if you want to have a safe passage through the junction you just follow it in a clockwise direction. If you prefer to ride on the road nothing is stopping you but why put yourself at a pointless risk of being hit by a vehicle when you can have a protected turn stage?
Well, for the same reason for a lot of things - it's faster.

For instance, when I woke up quite late, and had an appointment at Forest Hill at 9am. So I took the road bike, as it was faster, and went the most direct route. But then I had a choice to make with the A40: do I use the shared use track, or the (NSL dual) carriageway?

As the speed difference would be the difference between being late and on time, I used the carriageway.
I prefer being alive to being early.
Surely the point is that, with a properly designed junction/road that has dedicated cycle facilities, everyone can use the road. Without them, only someone with a confidence level similar to that of Solocle is likely to cycle. With them, anyone can. No need to find issue with people who choose differently to yourself.

User avatar
Bryn666
Member
Posts: 31919
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54

Re: Cyclops junctions

Post by Bryn666 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 15:10

Chris5156 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 15:06
Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 14:26
solocle wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 08:04

Well, for the same reason for a lot of things - it's faster.

For instance, when I woke up quite late, and had an appointment at Forest Hill at 9am. So I took the road bike, as it was faster, and went the most direct route. But then I had a choice to make with the A40: do I use the shared use track, or the (NSL dual) carriageway?

As the speed difference would be the difference between being late and on time, I used the carriageway.
I prefer being alive to being early.
Surely the point is that, with a properly designed junction/road that has dedicated cycle facilities, everyone can use the road. Without them, only someone with a confidence level similar to that of Solocle is likely to cycle. With them, anyone can. No need to find issue with people who choose differently to yourself.
Yes, but the argument is often trotted out that this type of infrastructure is "no good for cyclists who use the road". We don't design for that demographic, since they're happy to be in the road. We design for the 12 year old who should be able to ride a bike to school safely, which means that safety takes priority over speed.
Bryn
Traffic/Road Safety Dogsbody and General Grumpy Now-a-Thirtysomething Man
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/

User avatar
andrewwoods
Member
Posts: 509
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 16:23
Location: Poole

Re: Cyclops junctions

Post by andrewwoods » Fri Oct 22, 2021 15:21

Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 15:10
Yes, but the argument is often trotted out that this type of infrastructure is "no good for cyclists who use the road". We don't design for that demographic, since they're happy to be in the road. We design for the 12 year old who should be able to ride a bike to school safely, which means that safety takes priority over speed.
Safety of the 12 year old, yes, but not safety of the cyclist on the road who is subjected to punishment passes from irate motorists because he's not on the cycle path.

The Netherlands seem to manage to provide cycle infrastructure that suits both demographics. Why can't we?

User avatar
Bryn666
Member
Posts: 31919
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54

Re: Cyclops junctions

Post by Bryn666 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 15:25

andrewwoods wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 15:21
Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 15:10
Yes, but the argument is often trotted out that this type of infrastructure is "no good for cyclists who use the road". We don't design for that demographic, since they're happy to be in the road. We design for the 12 year old who should be able to ride a bike to school safely, which means that safety takes priority over speed.
Safety of the 12 year old, yes, but not safety of the cyclist on the road who is subjected to punishment passes from irate motorists because he's not on the cycle path.

The Netherlands seem to manage to provide cycle infrastructure that suits both demographics. Why can't we?
Most major roads in NL have segregated facilities so very few people ride in the road, especially in urban areas where there are central reservations and carriageway widths sub 5m so no time advantage to being stuck behind slow moving cars. Fietstraats are designed with 12 year olds in mind.
Bryn
Traffic/Road Safety Dogsbody and General Grumpy Now-a-Thirtysomething Man
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/

B1040
Member
Posts: 1890
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 15:51
Location: fenland

Re: Cyclops junctions

Post by B1040 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 17:26

It makes more sense now, especially since a lot of "road works clutter" has been removed.
Candidate for Numpty overload sitting motionless on his bike peering at his phone forcing me onto the mainline.

User avatar
Richard_Fairhurst
Member
Posts: 404
Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 13:16

Re: Cyclops junctions

Post by Richard_Fairhurst » Fri Oct 22, 2021 18:24

solocle wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 08:04
For instance, when I woke up quite late, and had an appointment at Forest Hill at 9am. So I took the road bike, as it was faster, and went the most direct route. But then I had a choice to make with the A40: do I use the shared use track, or the (NSL dual) carriageway?

As the speed difference would be the difference between being late and on time, I used the carriageway.
That's not a design issue, though, it's a maintenance issue. If the A40 cycle track had regular vegetation patrol, and the surface was smooth and restored to full width, it'd be fine. But even the wider Oxfordshire cycle tracks have suffered major incursions this year - the one beside the A44 towards Woodstock was basically like the African Queen at one point.
Help map the world: openstreetmap.org

Nwallace
Member
Posts: 4059
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 22:42
Location: Dundee

Re: Cyclops junctions

Post by Nwallace » Fri Oct 22, 2021 18:44

Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 15:10
Chris5156 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 15:06
Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 14:26


I prefer being alive to being early.
Surely the point is that, with a properly designed junction/road that has dedicated cycle facilities, everyone can use the road. Without them, only someone with a confidence level similar to that of Solocle is likely to cycle. With them, anyone can. No need to find issue with people who choose differently to yourself.
Yes, but the argument is often trotted out that this type of infrastructure is "no good for cyclists who use the road". We don't design for that demographic, since they're happy to be in the road. We design for the 12 year old who should be able to ride a bike to school safely, which means that safety takes priority over speed.
This is where the British design school of cycle facilities falls over.
They're designed for the sort of cyclists that barely exist in the UK because basically we haven't had facilities due to "vehicular cycling" (aka not-segregating traffic by speed differential)
Which then results in "but it's not getting used" and getting torn up in the adoption period because councillors are getting it in the neck for something that has no recordable impact on anyone else.

I would prefer it if facilities were designed such that there was segregation that allowed me to batter on without worrying about traffic with a 10->30 mph speed differential to me on country roads, but with the exception of a few heavily trafficked tourist routes (A82 I'm looking at you) that non-utility cyclists want to use and are avoiding, in town it's the utility cycling infrastructure that's needed, and needed 30 years ago.

User avatar
solocle
Member
Posts: 307
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 18:27

Re: Cyclops junctions

Post by solocle » Fri Oct 22, 2021 21:17

Nwallace wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 18:44
Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 15:10
Chris5156 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 15:06

Surely the point is that, with a properly designed junction/road that has dedicated cycle facilities, everyone can use the road. Without them, only someone with a confidence level similar to that of Solocle is likely to cycle. With them, anyone can. No need to find issue with people who choose differently to yourself.
Yes, but the argument is often trotted out that this type of infrastructure is "no good for cyclists who use the road". We don't design for that demographic, since they're happy to be in the road. We design for the 12 year old who should be able to ride a bike to school safely, which means that safety takes priority over speed.
This is where the British design school of cycle facilities falls over.
They're designed for the sort of cyclists that barely exist in the UK because basically we haven't had facilities due to "vehicular cycling" (aka not-segregating traffic by speed differential)
Which then results in "but it's not getting used" and getting torn up in the adoption period because councillors are getting it in the neck for something that has no recordable impact on anyone else.

I would prefer it if facilities were designed such that there was segregation that allowed me to batter on without worrying about traffic with a 10->30 mph speed differential to me on country roads, but with the exception of a few heavily trafficked tourist routes (A82 I'm looking at you) that non-utility cyclists want to use and are avoiding, in town it's the utility cycling infrastructure that's needed, and needed 30 years ago.
I mean, I personally quite liked the A82, but it was September.
01448D6B-7262-4BEF-BAF8-AEBE0F7867C0.jpeg
What I feel is really lacking is the trunk road network (yes, I know, the A82 is trunk, but English trunk roads can be a whole different league).

A sign like this should never exist, ever:
F1DA4B29-BCEC-4623-8A44-3E4B2363897B.jpeg
(N.b this was on the old A303 through Ilminster. The section being pointed to, that I cycled a mile of, is an NSL Dual Carriageway. For added effect, this was Bank Holiday Monday, Londonward. Fortunately the bottleneck of Ilminster limited how awful it could be).

At the other end of the A303, it's again difficult to avoid the multiplex with the A30:
C1443644-F3E6-42D0-9F0D-2581D151FA9A.jpeg

Post Reply