M1 Junctions 19-23A

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jackal
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M1 Junctions 19-23A

Post by jackal » Tue Oct 17, 2017 16:43

This lengthy RIS2 smart motorway scheme includes improvements to J21:
M1 Junctions 19-23A C30 Midlands
Upgrade of the remaining sections of the M1 in the Midlands
to smart motorway standard, creating a continuous smart
motorway link from London to Yorkshire. As part of the
improvement, upgrades will be made to junction 21,
improving the links from the M1 to the M69 and relieving
pressure on the main junction.

Developed for next
road period
Autumn Statement 2014 £250-500m
[my emphasis]
Plans from an earlier J21-21a scheme can be seen here (ambitious 2006 plans) and here (revised 2007 plans). I would guess that the new J21-J21a plan will be similar to the 2007 plans, probably with D5ALR.

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Re: M1 Junctions 19-23A

Post by Bryn666 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 16:57

D5ALR won't fit under LFE services mind...
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Re: M1 Junctions 19-23A

Post by M4 Cardiff » Tue Oct 17, 2017 17:10

If they go for the freeflow junction bypass, the services will be removed due to insufficient weaving space.

I wonder whether a new MSA would need to be built somewhere, partly to compensate the operator and partly to avoid a long gap (Watford Gap to Donnington) on the M1. - Although I'd guess that if the M69 / M1 turning movement is taken off the roundabout, a single access MSA could be built off the southwestern quadrant of the roundabout, with a bit of re-jigging
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Re: M1 Junctions 19-23A

Post by jackal » Tue Oct 17, 2017 21:00

I don't think they'd just plug it into J21 - even with the M1->M69 right turn removed it will be congested. In the eastern bypass thread Darkcape mentions the following possibilities:
The Mercury reported it [the services] could be moved to the new J20a. However a previous aspiration by the council was to add north-facing slips to the M1 at J21a, and build a new LFE services there that would still serve the M1 and M69/A46 traffic. In 2007 when the HA consulted on the M69-M1 link there were objections to closing LFE and redeveloping Markfield because the passing traffic levels were lower and operators would not want that.
This is probably the article in question. It gives the impression that J20a is very much the plan.

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Re: M1 Junctions 19-23A

Post by EpicChef » Fri Jul 05, 2019 21:14

The bits such as LFE with already 4 lanes could receive VSL only upgrades.
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Re: M1 Junctions 19-23A

Post by danfw194 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 15:30

J21>J21a would be fairly suitable for a C/D scenario in my opinion, maybe a 2-3-3-2 layout if you could squeeze that in. Obviously you'd have to get rid of LFE but apart from those that love nostalgia, would anyone really care if it went?
Giving the proximity of Donington Services, it makes perfect sense for a new MSA to be south of LFE rather than north, but plugging it into a junction would be disappointing. You'd then have 2 consecutive MSA's plugged into junctions....we all know how much of a pain it is to get in and out of Donington services. And, it would suggest a potential J20a might not be freeflow, which it absolutely must be if any new southern bypass were to be a success story.

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Re: M1 Junctions 19-23A

Post by EpicChef » Mon Jul 08, 2019 22:25

I have a bit of a soft spot for the existing signal gantries near LFE, one of the last few sets of gantries with arrows mounted below the MS1 lane signals - which is not allowed in the TSRGD anymore.

I’d be sad if we lost them to new gantries - I’m hoping that they mount AMI signals onto existing gantries.
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Re: M1 Junctions 19-23A

Post by jackal » Mon Aug 02, 2021 17:22

Direct links to 2006 plans:

Option 1. D6M, freeflow link bypasses services: https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov ... 0_opt1.pdf

Option 2. D6M, freeflow link near services, services demolished: https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov ... 0_opt2.pdf

Option 3. D6M, freeflow link near J21, services demolished: https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov ... 0_opt3.pdf

Option 4. D4M+D2M, freeflow link bypasses services:
https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov ... 0_opt4.pdf

The 2007 plans are basically watered down versions of option 3 with either D4 DHS (option 5) or D5M (option 6): http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov. ... 1_J21a.pdf

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Re: M1 Junctions 19-23A

Post by JonB2028 » Mon Aug 02, 2021 21:27

For J21-J21a, all the land west of the M1 north of the M69 is slated for development, in the local plan:
https://www.blaby.gov.uk/planning-and-b ... besthorpe/
https://www.blaby.gov.uk/media/wtpbxxqs ... iagram.pdf
Rather spoils the fun, doesn't it?

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Re: M1 Junctions 19-23A

Post by jackal » Tue Aug 03, 2021 09:48

That would seem to rule out options 1, 2 or 4, though these were already unlikely as they sever the scheduled monument.

It should be something in the ballpark of options 3, 5 or 6, i.e., with the freeflow links near to J21 and south of the scheduled monument.

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Re: M1 Junctions 19-23A

Post by A320Driver » Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:37

Looks like a classic case of the right hand not talking to the left hand, and co-ordinating the works. You can guarantee that all the new residents will fiercely contest any plans for “new motorways” once they have moved in, but oddly would likely move in with the road already there.
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Re: M1 Junctions 19-23A

Post by Phil » Tue Aug 03, 2021 19:18

A320Driver wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:37
Looks like a classic case of the right hand not talking to the left hand, and co-ordinating the works. You can guarantee that all the new residents will fiercely contest any plans for “new motorways” once they have moved in, but oddly would likely move in with the road already there.
You need to remember that planning housing (or rather setting aside x% of land every 5 years for housebuilding as per what the Westminster Government has rigged the planning system to FORCE them to do) is technically the responsibility of local authorities.

Any attempts to resist earmarking land for housing on the basis that HE might have vague plans to build a road at some unspecified stage in the future will be steamrollered by the big developers and their Lawyers.

Meanwhile the planning of strategic roads is seemingly done on a piecemeal basis and dependent on what HM Treasury finds down the back of its sofa and there is a strong Westminster Government culture of flogging off anything it doesn't immediately need for a quick buck so they are hardly going to intervene.

In an ideal world a no-brainer situation like the fact that the M1 / M69 / A46 corridor is going to need enhancements would see an option picked and land safeguarded for decades if necessary until the improvements can be delivered. That is however called 'long term planning and a totally alien concept for the Westminster machine to grasp.

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Re: M1 Junctions 19-23A

Post by jackal » Sun Dec 05, 2021 15:06

I thought it would be useful to pull together some updated info about this scheme.

In the RIS2 document it was split into two schemes, with both listed as RIS3 pipeline schemes:

- M1 Leicester western access: "The M1 Leicester Western Access scheme is specifically looking at the transport problems that exist on the M1 between J21 where the M1 connects to the M69 and J21a where it connects to A46". https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... sthrough=1 (via C2R).
- M1 North Leicestershire extra capacity: One can surmise that this covers the 14 mile stretch from J21a to J23a.

The DfT contract info indicates that M1 Leicester Western Access has a contract start date of Jan-22 with a budget of £234,000,000.

The budget suggests something along the lines of options 5 and 6 from 2007, with a freeflow right turn for J21 and an extra lane (either ALR or widening) for J21 to J21a: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov. ... 1_J21a.pdf

There is little info about M1 North Leicestershire extra capacity, which presumably depends on political decisions about ALR.

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Re: M1 Junctions 19-23A

Post by EpicChef » Sun Dec 05, 2021 23:48

jackal wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 15:06
There is little info about M1 North Leicestershire extra capacity, which presumably depends on political decisions about ALR.
Unlikely to happen I can tell you now.
HE (ok, I'm sorry, NH) have already canceled M3 J9-14.

They're falling victim to the political outcries about managed motorways being unsafe, yes there are concerns and serious ones at that, but it's being politicized like every other serious issue in the world, and so that is detracting from any serious amends that are trying to be made.

I feel like we need to give the 'stocktake' a chance and see what effect implementing those measures has without killing off essential extra capacity as a knee-jerk reaction to a bit of public concern.

That's not to say I don't recognize that hard shoulders are a safety net that many people appreciate having there, and that they may have saved some of the lives lost or changed due to live-lane stops on managed motorways. But we need to find a practical solution as the problem of congestion is not going to go away. We're having a couple hundred people still succumbing to covid per day, and while that's of course devastating, we're not locking down for it.
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Re: M1 Junctions 19-23A

Post by jackal » Mon Dec 06, 2021 07:27

EpicChef wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 23:48
jackal wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 15:06
There is little info about M1 North Leicestershire extra capacity, which presumably depends on political decisions about ALR.
Unlikely to happen I can tell you now.
HE (ok, I'm sorry, NH) have already canceled M3 J9-14.
Source? As far as I know it was announced that it was paused a couple of weeks ago, not cancelled.

In any case, even if ALR were completely 'cancelled', that does not necessarily end the M1 North Leicestershire scheme as they could do a full widening project. I assume they meant to leave things open in this respect by calling such schemes 'extra capacity'. Of course, there would be dramatic cost implications, which may make widening not viable, but it can't be ruled out in advance.

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Re: M1 Junctions 19-23A

Post by EpicChef » Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:20

jackal wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 07:27
EpicChef wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 23:48
jackal wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 15:06
There is little info about M1 North Leicestershire extra capacity, which presumably depends on political decisions about ALR.
Unlikely to happen I can tell you now.
HE (ok, I'm sorry, NH) have already canceled M3 J9-14.
Source? As far as I know it was announced that it was paused a couple of weeks ago, not cancelled.

In any case, even if ALR were completely 'cancelled', that does not necessarily end the M1 North Leicestershire scheme as they could do a full widening project. I assume they meant to leave things open in this respect by calling such schemes 'extra capacity'. Of course, there would be dramatic cost implications, which may make widening not viable, but it can't be ruled out in advance.
I had huge hope that the entire 19-23A stretch would be widened or ALRed (or at least VSL) so there's continuous provision of VSL, MS4 signs, additional CCTV etc all the way from J6A-J42. (As J35A-39 is also planned for RIS3).
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Re: M1 Junctions 19-23A

Post by c2R » Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:54

EpicChef wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:20
I had huge hope that the entire 19-23A stretch would be widened or ALRed (or at least VSL) so there's continuous provision of VSL, MS4 signs, additional CCTV etc all the way from J6A-J42. (As J35A-39 is also planned for RIS3).
But surely road improvements should be added where they're most needed? 19-21 is quiet, as a lot of the M1 traffic heading north has gone off up the M6 at 19, and traffic joins again from the West Midlands at 21. This is borne out by AADT of over 125k north of 21, compared to 80k between 19 and 21, and 100k south of 19.

So from a cost benefit perspective, the money needs to be spent on 21, or somewhere else on the network, e.g. Doncaster where the A1(M) is carrying more on D2M than the M1 is on D3M between 19 and 21

Edited to correct my silly error.
Last edited by c2R on Mon Dec 06, 2021 14:51, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: M1 Junctions 19-23A

Post by the cheesecake man » Mon Dec 06, 2021 13:35

c2R wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:54
So from a cost benefit perspective, the money needs to be spent on 23A, or somewhere else on the network, e.g. Doncaster where the A1(M) is carrying more on D2M than the M1 is on D3M between 19 and 23A
19-21 (Catthorpe - Leicester) I'd agree but I wouldn't suggest it remains less busy past Leicester.

I made the same comment on another thread about 35A-39. I suspect the answer is the same ie in isolation 35A-39 and 19-21 do not appear to be sensible priorities but politically being able to proclaim that the whole of M1 has been improved is too tempting to decline.

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Re: M1 Junctions 19-23A

Post by c2R » Mon Dec 06, 2021 14:51

the cheesecake man wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 13:35
c2R wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:54
So from a cost benefit perspective, the money needs to be spent on 23A, or somewhere else on the network, e.g. Doncaster where the A1(M) is carrying more on D2M than the M1 is on D3M between 19 and 23A
19-21 (Catthorpe - Leicester) I'd agree but I wouldn't suggest it remains less busy past Leicester.

I made the same comment on another thread about 35A-39. I suspect the answer is the same ie in isolation 35A-39 and 19-21 do not appear to be sensible priorities but politically being able to proclaim that the whole of M1 has been improved is too tempting to decline.
Oops, I meant 21, not 23A. I'll edit my original post as it's confusing I agree!
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Re: M1 Junctions 19-23A

Post by jackal » Mon Dec 06, 2021 15:37

the cheesecake man wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 13:35
c2R wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:54
So from a cost benefit perspective, the money needs to be spent on 23A, or somewhere else on the network, e.g. Doncaster where the A1(M) is carrying more on D2M than the M1 is on D3M between 19 and 23A
19-21 (Catthorpe - Leicester) I'd agree but I wouldn't suggest it remains less busy past Leicester.

I made the same comment on another thread about 35A-39. I suspect the answer is the same ie in isolation 35A-39 and 19-21 do not appear to be sensible priorities but politically being able to proclaim that the whole of M1 has been improved is too tempting to decline.
To be fair it seems they did quietly drop J19 to 21 ALR when they split J19-23A into Leicester Western Access and North Leicester Capacity Improvements.

It shows the effectiveness of the ALR programme that England is starting to run out of major lengths of seriously congested D3M. The pipeline 'extra capacity' schemes are below 100k AADT (M1 North Leicestershire and J35-39) or, in the case of M6 J19-21a, predominantly D4M.

If ALR is out for the count it's a shame that came just before they could finish off the last few really problematic stretches of D3M like M3 J9 to J14. Likewise, it will be a travesty if the actually dangerous DHS standard never gets converted to ALR due to the current scare.

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