Roads as county/local authority boundaries

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rhyds
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by rhyds » Mon Jan 17, 2022 13:22

trickstat wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 13:11
rhyds wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:31
Also, lets not forget the fun and games that is Chester FC.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.18915,- ... a=!3m1!1e3

In short the Club claims that it is English and always has been, however its ground and three of four stands are wholly in Cymru/Sir y Fflint/Flintshire, and they apparently claimed a Covid support grant from Flintshire CC. Problem is that under welsh Covid regs they couldn't have a crowd at matches, but under the English rules they could. Now that Welsh regs are being relaxed the problem has gone away again.
AIUI the club's offices are very strategically positioned so that they are just in England.
Indeed, and the carpark is all in England too, as they ran in to a similar issue when they decided to have a drive-in cinema night, and found they couldn't use the toilets in the stands as they were in Wales (and toilets weren't considered valid reason for cross border travel). IIRC they ended up with portaloos.
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by WhiteBlueRed » Mon Jan 17, 2022 13:27

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4628353 ... 312!8i6656
This country lane marks the border of Nottinghamshire to the south, and Lincolnshire to the north.

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Chris Bertram
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by Chris Bertram » Mon Jan 17, 2022 13:27

rhyds wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:31
One well known location is Llanymynech, where the Cymru/England and Sir Drefaldwyn/Powys/Shropshire border runs through the village and down the A483 centre line

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.7812119,-3.0921585,17z

In the past the different alcohol licencing laws between the two jurisdictions meant that you had to cross the road for a Sunday pint, whereas now the main issue seems to be differing Covid regulations.
There was one hostelry where, allegedly, the differing closing times meant that you had to move from the bar to the lounge for the final half-hour of drinking time as the boundary ran through the property.
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by Rob590 » Mon Jan 17, 2022 14:57

Some very interesting answers!

Looks like National Parks and AONBs use them more frequently than other designations. Some other interesting ones seem to be the A595 which forms the southern, western and northern borders of the Lake District over three different sections, the South Downs which is very tightly drawn around towns and cities and which uses the A27 extensively, and Dartmoor and its lengthy use of the A48.

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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by unrepentantfool » Mon Jan 17, 2022 17:46

Rob590 wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 14:57
Some very interesting answers!

Looks like National Parks and AONBs use them more frequently than other designations. Some other interesting ones seem to be the A595 which forms the southern, western and northern borders of the Lake District over three different sections, the South Downs which is very tightly drawn around towns and cities and which uses the A27 extensively, and Dartmoor and its lengthy use of the A48.
I assume you meant the A38? :D

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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by jgharston » Mon Jan 17, 2022 21:05

Jim606 wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:09
Another issue of note, would be small village of Kildwick which was part of the Bradford Metropolitan District from 1974 to 1983 http://www.farnhill.co.uk/History_Docs/ ... ue%201.pdf. Now if IIRC, the Kildwick bypass A629 was built within that timeframe and the bypass ended at the then boundary between the Bradford MD & the Craven District of North Yorkshire? Although the new boundary is now to the east the change in the road between 'old' and 'new' still remains. https://www.google.com/maps/@53.910159, ... 384!8i8192
There was a lot of erratic nonsense in the northern boundary of West Yorkshire from 1974 due to the new authorities being hastily patched together from existing units. In 1983 the boundary was reviewed and placed almost entirely along the Wharf. There are still some messes near Otley and Ilkley due to houses being built on top of the boundaries, they'll eventually get sorted at some point.

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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by Jim606 » Mon Jan 17, 2022 21:42

rhyds wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 13:22
trickstat wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 13:11
rhyds wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:31
Also, lets not forget the fun and games that is Chester FC.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.18915,- ... a=!3m1!1e3

In short the Club claims that it is English and always has been, however its ground and three of four stands are wholly in Cymru/Sir y Fflint/Flintshire, and they apparently claimed a Covid support grant from Flintshire CC. Problem is that under welsh Covid regs they couldn't have a crowd at matches, but under the English rules they could. Now that Welsh regs are being relaxed the problem has gone away again.
AIUI the club's offices are very strategically positioned so that they are just in England.
Indeed, and the carpark is all in England too, as they ran in to a similar issue when they decided to have a drive-in cinema night, and found they couldn't use the toilets in the stands as they were in Wales (and toilets weren't considered valid reason for cross border travel). IIRC they ended up with portaloos.
I believe the reason for the unusual boundary line was the canalisation of the River Dee in the 1800s? The cause of the old river originally formed the boundary and was never changed when the area was reclaimed from I guess marshland? Whilst internal county boundaries can be changed every now and again in England, Wales, Scotland etc. There is obviously a reticent to make changes to the boundaries between said countries . However, it has happened over time. The parliamentary Act of 1844 cleaned up a lot of enclaves including some oddities between England and Wales. There is also the case of the 'Ball Green' between England & Scotland. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJZYOuoAd-Y

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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by Gareth Thomas » Fri Jan 21, 2022 01:15

The A4232 provides much of the border between Cardiff and the Vale of Glamorgan.
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Jim606
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by Jim606 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 20:58

Roads can form a 'subconscious' as well a 'defined boundary' between areas. I live in Essex and the county is 'generally' defined by the River Stour to the north, the coast to the east, the Thames and the M25 to the south and the M11 to the west. Although, this is not strictly accurate as Harlow and Epping lay the other side of the M11. Boundaries are funny things...

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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by trickstat » Mon Jan 24, 2022 21:34

Jim606 wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 20:58
Roads can form a 'subconscious' as well a 'defined boundary' between areas. I live in Essex and the county is 'generally' defined by the River Stour to the north, the coast to the east, the Thames and the M25 to the south and the M11 to the west. Although, this is not strictly accurate as Harlow and Epping lay the other side of the M11. Boundaries are funny things...
Also places like Loughton, Chigwell and Theydon Bois are inside the M25. However, I do get your point in general though. I tend to think of places in Surrey within the M25 like Epsom, Weybridge and Walton-on-Thames somehow being essentially different to places in the county outside it when they probably aren't really, outside of shorter commuting times making property more expensive. Having lived all my life in Herts, I don't regard the M25 as a geographical marker within the county and wouldn't consider anywhere other than Watford its largest town.

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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by Rob590 » Tue Jan 25, 2022 14:29

Jim606 wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 20:58
Roads can form a 'subconscious' as well a 'defined boundary' between areas. I live in Essex and the county is 'generally' defined by the River Stour to the north, the coast to the east, the Thames and the M25 to the south and the M11 to the west. Although, this is not strictly accurate as Harlow and Epping lay the other side of the M11. Boundaries are funny things...
I suspect that roads form these informal boundaries even more than they do 'real' boundaries. They shape the schools people chose to go to, the shops they use, the walking routes that they take. Particularly because big roads have a tendnecy to create dead zones around them, in which there's less housing and more things like parking and verges which form deterrents for people to pass over.

To take where I live: the civil parish I'm in doesn't match the district that most people in the city would describe me as living in, because the parish boundary pre-dates the construction of a motorway. Most people I think would now identify the border between the two districts as to where you have to cross the motorway, and as a 'community' we have basically no interaction acrosst that boundary; rather, we are much more embedded in activities in the neighbouring parish, which is on the same side of the motorway as us. The motorway has basically shifted the boundary, even if the line on the map remains unchagned.

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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by exiled » Tue Jan 25, 2022 14:33

rhyds wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 13:22
trickstat wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 13:11
rhyds wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:31
Also, lets not forget the fun and games that is Chester FC.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.18915,- ... a=!3m1!1e3

In short the Club claims that it is English and always has been, however its ground and three of four stands are wholly in Cymru/Sir y Fflint/Flintshire, and they apparently claimed a Covid support grant from Flintshire CC. Problem is that under welsh Covid regs they couldn't have a crowd at matches, but under the English rules they could. Now that Welsh regs are being relaxed the problem has gone away again.
AIUI the club's offices are very strategically positioned so that they are just in England.
Indeed, and the carpark is all in England too, as they ran in to a similar issue when they decided to have a drive-in cinema night, and found they couldn't use the toilets in the stands as they were in Wales (and toilets weren't considered valid reason for cross border travel). IIRC they ended up with portaloos.
The England Wales border presents a few examples of roads as boundaries such as the appropriately names Boundary Lane, Saltney.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1784419 ... 312!8i6656

Further up at the junction the map suggests the pub is in England, but the house next to it is in Wales.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1794547 ... 384!8i8192
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by KeithW » Tue Jan 25, 2022 15:32

In north London I lived at 2 Reynolds Drive , Queensbury. The boundary between Harrow and Brent ran down the centre of the road so my bins were emptied by Harrow Council while the bins at no 3 across the road were emptied by Brent Council. The rateable value for both houses were in the same band but the couple at no 3 paid more. Just before I moved out Brent and Harrow cut a deal so that only one pickup happened a week.

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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by multiraider2 » Tue Jan 25, 2022 16:29

Crystal Palace has been mentioned and another well-known South London one was the boundary between LB Wandsworth and LB Lambeth. It runs completely down the middle of Cavendish Road in the South Clapham/Balham area here. (Save actually where Cavendish Road becomes part of the A205 South Circular at the top). In many places in the road, identical looking houses on either side, but during the height of the poll tax folly, it meant one side paying the lowest rate in the country (zero) and the other the highest.
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by Scratchwood » Sun Feb 13, 2022 20:08

In certain places, the London boundary has been realigned to coincide with he M25, for example between just east of J24 and half way between J25 and J26 is the border between London (Enfield) and Herts. Maps seem to suggest that the boundary here is just outside the M25, with the Motorway being in Enfield.

This boundary here was realigned in 1994

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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by Scratchwood » Sun Feb 13, 2022 20:19

Other than a small section of West Hendon on the "wrong side" which belong to Barnet, the A5 Edgware Road (and its other names) is a major boundary in London. From north to south, starting at the London/Herts boundary where it meets the A41

Between Harrow and Barnet
Between Brent and Barnet
Between Brent and Camden
Very briefly between Westminster and Camden

Until Westminster grabs it all!

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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by exiled » Sun Feb 13, 2022 20:30

There are a few around Glasgow such as this example in King's Park

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.81910 ... 384!8i8192

Largely driven by the 1990s council changes. In this case both sides were in Glasgow City from 1975 to 1996, however Glasgow lost large suburban and semi suburban areas in 1996. South Lanarkshire, East Renfrewshire and East Dumbartonshire being recipients. IIRC South Lanarkshire was probably the big beneficiary.
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by WHBM » Sun Feb 13, 2022 20:49

From when buses were municipally owned, there were various arrangements for cross-boundary routes. Some were just managed behind the scenes, but I recall others more overt, including the bus going through, but you could only buy tickets to the boundary, where a conductor from the other borough got on and everyone had to pay again from there onwards. Then there was being actually put off the supposedly through bus at the boundary into another one waiting, the tickets went through but the new conductor came round, took each one, put it in the ticket machine, and issued a second ticket for zero value half stamped over the first one !

These are the sort of things that occur where authorities can't agree on boundary issues. Differences in winter maintenance, fully treated to the boundary but impassable beyond, used to be a regular. You still get this at Canary Wharf in London, who maintain their own network and have their contractor come and treat them when temperatures fall, well before Tower Hamlets do so (if at all). The salting of course spreads itself for half a mile or so outside.

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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by owen b » Sun Feb 13, 2022 21:37

There's a logic in assuming that the M1 is the boundary between Luton and Dunstable (which is in Central Bedfordshire authority), but actually Luton extends quite some way west of the M1 and the boundary is Poynters Road. I'm not sure whether the exact boundary is on one side of the road or the other or up the middle, though the OS 1:25,000 suggests it's up the middle. About 20 years ago I was witness to a nasty crash on this road. Driving towards Houghton Regis, I was overtaken at high speed by a car which hit an oncoming car. I waited for the police and told them I was a witness and was very surprised not to be asked to make a statement.
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Re: Roads as county/local authority boundaries

Post by trickstat » Sun Feb 13, 2022 22:04

owen b wrote:
Sun Feb 13, 2022 21:37
There's a logic in assuming that the M1 is the boundary between Luton and Dunstable (which is in Central Bedfordshire authority), but actually Luton extends quite some way west of the M1 and the boundary is Poynters Road. I'm not sure whether the exact boundary is on one side of the road or the other or up the middle, though the OS 1:25,000 suggests it's up the middle. About 20 years ago I was witness to a nasty crash on this road. Driving towards Houghton Regis, I was overtaken at high speed by a car which hit an oncoming car. I waited for the police and told them I was a witness and was very surprised not to be asked to make a statement.
It was quite a few years after I moved to Letchworth that I realised that a small part of Baldock lies west of the A1(M).

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