£40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

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Bryn666
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by Bryn666 »

jackal wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:22
mikehindsonevans wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 00:20
c2R wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 00:04 Do we have any idea about what's going to be built at Manchester NW Quadrant - 3 entries totalling £3.3bn is a massive amount of money....
Possibly the (25 years later) realistic cost of widening the M62 corridor up to the Valley of Death from Urmston past the M61 to the M67 junction (and hopefully at least one mile beyond!). This was abandoned after buying up properties.
As of 2020 the full M62 bypass had been ruled out. There's a summary here:

1. M60 Junction 14 remodelling – under consideration
2. M60 Junction 12 and Junction 13 remodelling – under consideration
3. M62 to A57 Link Road – under consideration
4. M60 Junction 17 to Junction 18 capacity improvements – No longer
required as part of the committed RIS2, M60 Simister Island project
5. M60 Junction 12 to Junction 18 bypass – Not in scope
6. New link Road between M61 and M62 east of Junction 18 – Not in scope as
part of the Northern Corridor option which was assessed by Highways
England in 2016-2017 and did not progress further.
7. M60 Junction 9 to Junction 10 capacity improvements – under
consideration
8. New link (Wigan, Hindley, Westhoughton bypass) from M58 to M61 – Not in
scope as part of the Northern Corridor option which was assessed by
Highways England in 2016-2017 and did not progress further.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... quadrant_p
A trip out with the thermoplastic laying lorry would solve most of Worsley and M60 J14's problems. In particular remarking this to be a 2+2 merge instead of 3+1 merge: https://goo.gl/maps/WjFAB9yyeEVL9pTt7

Massive civils are simply not needed here.
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Chris Bertram
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by Chris Bertram »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 12:17
jackal wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:22
mikehindsonevans wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 00:20
Possibly the (25 years later) realistic cost of widening the M62 corridor up to the Valley of Death from Urmston past the M61 to the M67 junction (and hopefully at least one mile beyond!). This was abandoned after buying up properties.
As of 2020 the full M62 bypass had been ruled out. There's a summary here:

1. M60 Junction 14 remodelling – under consideration
2. M60 Junction 12 and Junction 13 remodelling – under consideration
3. M62 to A57 Link Road – under consideration
4. M60 Junction 17 to Junction 18 capacity improvements – No longer
required as part of the committed RIS2, M60 Simister Island project
5. M60 Junction 12 to Junction 18 bypass – Not in scope
6. New link Road between M61 and M62 east of Junction 18 – Not in scope as
part of the Northern Corridor option which was assessed by Highways
England in 2016-2017 and did not progress further.
7. M60 Junction 9 to Junction 10 capacity improvements – under
consideration
8. New link (Wigan, Hindley, Westhoughton bypass) from M58 to M61 – Not in
scope as part of the Northern Corridor option which was assessed by
Highways England in 2016-2017 and did not progress further.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... quadrant_p
A trip out with the thermoplastic laying lorry would solve most of Worsley and M60 J14's problems. In particular remarking this to be a 2+2 merge instead of 3+1 merge: https://goo.gl/maps/WjFAB9yyeEVL9pTt7

Massive civils are simply not needed here.
Yeah, but where's the fun in that?
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jackal
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by jackal »

Indeed they should do that, though I don't think the major works are being considered around there. I expect it's more to do with sorting out the J12-13 mess. It was suggested at one point that J13 could be closed and south facing slips at J14 provided, perhaps with a stackabout-like arrangement.

J12-J13 is really not hard to fix IMO, e.g.:

M60 M62 A575 - Copy.png

Or with braiding northbound:

M60 M602 A575 braid - Copy.jpg
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Bryn666
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by Bryn666 »

jackal wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 12:37 Indeed they should do that, though I don't think the major works are being considered around there. I expect it's more to do with sorting out the J12-13 mess. It was suggested at one point that J13 could be closed and south facing slips at J14 provided, perhaps with a stackabout-like arrangement.

J12-J13 is really not hard to fix IMO, e.g.:


M60 M62 A575 - Copy.png


Or with braiding northbound:


M60 M602 A575 braid - Copy.jpg
I'd prefer a bit more radical for J12 - not least because the merge from the M602 into M60 clockwise is frankly lethal.

First steps are removing the M62-M60 movements from J12 by building a direct line between the M62 and M60. This creates a triangle of land where you can then sort out Eccles interchange and provide a replacement J13. Expensive? Yes. Big civils? Yes. Necessary? Absolutely.
Bryn
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

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jackal wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 23:54 Some of the pipeline schemes early in development have had massive cost increases over the last 6 months ago, presumably reflecting design work:

A27 Lewes to Polegate 01/01/2024 03/06/2024 £880,000,000.00
M1 Leicester Western Access 01/05/2023 01/11/2023 £564,000,000.00
A19 Junctions North of Newcastle 01/09/2024 03/03/2025 £424,000,000.00
A64 Hopgrove 01/05/2022 08/11/2022 £391,000,000.00
Anyone know if there's any details of what this is recently. It seems quite expensive considering Silverlink cost £75m and Tesco + Downhill £186m but there's just no news of it anywhere even the local Tories don't blag on about it like everything else considering I live around 2 miles away from it and it bypasses our village which is a rat run.

I'm guessing the rather lackluster signalised online junction at Seaton Burn and traffic light controlled diamond junction in the study from 2015 have been (rightly imo) thrown out the window though.
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

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jabbaboy wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 14:14 Anyone know if there's any details of what this is recently. It seems quite expensive considering Silverlink cost £75m and Tesco + Downhill £186m but there's just no news of it anywhere even the local Tories don't blag on about it like everything else considering I live around 2 miles away from it and it bypasses our village which is a rat run.

I'm guessing the rather lackluster signalised online junction at Seaton Burn and traffic light controlled diamond junction in the study from 2015 have been (rightly imo) thrown out the window though.
I do recall that Moor Farm Roundabout at Cramlington has a lot of problems with congestion and has a poor accident record, it really needs a decent GSJ. The Seaton Burn Roundabout isn't much better.
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by Chris5156 »

KeithW wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 14:49
jabbaboy wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 14:14 Anyone know if there's any details of what this is recently. It seems quite expensive considering Silverlink cost £75m and Tesco + Downhill £186m but there's just no news of it anywhere even the local Tories don't blag on about it like everything else considering I live around 2 miles away from it and it bypasses our village which is a rat run.

I'm guessing the rather lackluster signalised online junction at Seaton Burn and traffic light controlled diamond junction in the study from 2015 have been (rightly imo) thrown out the window though.
I do recall that Moor Farm Roundabout at Cramlington has a lot of problems with congestion and has a poor accident record, it really needs a decent GSJ. The Seaton Burn Roundabout isn't much better.
Looking at the price tag and the word "junctions" in the name it's surely intended to sort both out. Moor Farm shouldn't be difficult but it'll be interesting to see what is proposed at Seaton Burn. Given NH's recent track record it'll either be magnificent spaghetti or a disappointing fudge - they don't seem to offer much in between for major interchanges!
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by jabbaboy »

Chris5156 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 21:12
KeithW wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 14:49
jabbaboy wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 14:14 Anyone know if there's any details of what this is recently. It seems quite expensive considering Silverlink cost £75m and Tesco + Downhill £186m but there's just no news of it anywhere even the local Tories don't blag on about it like everything else considering I live around 2 miles away from it and it bypasses our village which is a rat run.

I'm guessing the rather lackluster signalised online junction at Seaton Burn and traffic light controlled diamond junction in the study from 2015 have been (rightly imo) thrown out the window though.
I do recall that Moor Farm Roundabout at Cramlington has a lot of problems with congestion and has a poor accident record, it really needs a decent GSJ. The Seaton Burn Roundabout isn't much better.
Looking at the price tag and the word "junctions" in the name it's surely intended to sort both out. Moor Farm shouldn't be difficult but it'll be interesting to see what is proposed at Seaton Burn. Given NH's recent track record it'll either be magnificent spaghetti or a disappointing fudge - they don't seem to offer much in between for major interchanges!
Yeah that's what I was thinking especially when the short distance between the A1 with Seaton Burn.

Moor Farm is one I'm quite interested in as the main flow is arguably A189(N) to A19(S) rather than A19 to A19 which I'm not sure will be enough without ending up with problems like the A174/A19 junction down in Middlesbrough.
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by A72 »

JohnnyMo wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 17:49 Given that the Millau Viaduct cost €400M can someone explain how the Lower Thames Crossing costs about 11 times as much at £4.3B.

edit -- Just noticed #7 £600M for roads in Kent, and #42 & #44
Because it is being built in Rip-Off Britain.
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by the cheesecake man »

Rillington wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 15:58 I've also been astounded by the cost of building new transport infrastructure, both for roads and railways as it seems to cost well over £10 million to build even the most basic train stations.

Crossflatts station opened in 1982 and cost £78,000.
Increasing that in line with RPI gives £253,000 in 2016.
Ilkeston station opened in 2016 and cost £10,000,000. :wow:
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

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the cheesecake man wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 23:32
Rillington wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 15:58 I've also been astounded by the cost of building new transport infrastructure, both for roads and railways as it seems to cost well over £10 million to build even the most basic train stations.
Crossflatts station opened in 1982 and cost £78,000.
Increasing that in line with RPI gives £253,000 in 2016.
Ilkeston station opened in 2016 and cost £10,000,000. :wow:
Construction inflation has its own index, which rises much faster - generally speaking RPI is not a good benchmark for construction costs. Not a justification, just an observation!
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

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the cheesecake man wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 23:32
Rillington wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 15:58 I've also been astounded by the cost of building new transport infrastructure, both for roads and railways as it seems to cost well over £10 million to build even the most basic train stations.

Crossflatts station opened in 1982 and cost £78,000.
Increasing that in line with RPI gives £253,000 in 2016.
Ilkeston station opened in 2016 and cost £10,000,000. :wow:
We no longer build basic train stations, they have to be accessible to the disabled, and have at least some rudimentary shelter and frankly that is a good thing. I recall when the Victorian Thornaby Station was razed and replaced with a bus shelter with no disabled access or staffing.

Old Station
Image

Bus Shelter era.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... MMB_03.jpg

Current rebuilt station
https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/ ... -facelift/
Herned
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by Herned »

the cheesecake man wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 23:32 Crossflatts station opened in 1982 and cost £78,000.
Increasing that in line with RPI gives £253,000 in 2016.
Ilkeston station opened in 2016 and cost £10,000,000. :wow:
Apart from the differences in construction costs, and what is actually built, under BR a lot of the costs would not have been accounted for in the same way. Now, all the costs associated with a new station are accounted for individually. E.g. Network Rail charged ~£600,000 to update their files and databases for the new Lea Bridge station in London, there is no way that BR would have accounted for that cost separately
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

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A72 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 23:06
JohnnyMo wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 17:49 Given that the Millau Viaduct cost €400M can someone explain how the Lower Thames Crossing costs about 11 times as much at £4.3B.

edit -- Just noticed #7 £600M for roads in Kent, and #42 & #44
Because it is being built in Rip-Off Britain.
Bridges are cheaper than tunnels, the Queen Elizabeth Bridge at Dartford cost £120 million.

The Lower Thames Crossing is NOT just the tunnel , it includes miles of HQ DC at each side, complex GSJ's etc and of course the reams of paperwork and studies to decide how the road will impact on the lesser spotted newt and sea gulls doesn't come cheap. You cannot build anything bigger than a garden shed these days without producing an environmental impact statement.

I can imagine the response of Thomas Telford or George Stephenson if you had asked them for all this stuff.
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by fras »

KeithW wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 09:14
A72 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 23:06
JohnnyMo wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 17:49 Given that the Millau Viaduct cost €400M can someone explain how the Lower Thames Crossing costs about 11 times as much at £4.3B.

edit -- Just noticed #7 £600M for roads in Kent, and #42 & #44
Because it is being built in Rip-Off Britain.
Bridges are cheaper than tunnels, the Queen Elizabeth Bridge at Dartford cost £120 million.

The Lower Thames Crossing is NOT just the tunnel , it includes miles of HQ DC at each side, complex GSJ's etc and of course the reams of paperwork and studies to decide how the road will impact on the lesser spotted newt and sea gulls doesn't come cheap. You cannot build anything bigger than a garden shed these days without producing an environmental impact statement.

I can imagine the response of Thomas Telford or George Stephenson if you had asked them for all this stuff.
Don't forget bats ! This nearly kyboshed the East-West Rail project. There was also extensive discussion and objections to HS2 on bats and where they were flying at the select committee deliberations. Hedghogs in Regents Park, (yes they really are there !!), took up about a day, because HS2 wanted to take over a car park to park tipper lorries. I do wonder if road and rail engineers in Europe have such hurdles to climb over.
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by jackal »

We do have more protections for bats and hedgehogs than most countries, but I see nothing wrong with that - we are a nation of animal lovers and the cost remains a negligible part of virtually all schemes.
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by ABB125 »

jabbaboy wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 22:59
Chris5156 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 21:12
KeithW wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 14:49

I do recall that Moor Farm Roundabout at Cramlington has a lot of problems with congestion and has a poor accident record, it really needs a decent GSJ. The Seaton Burn Roundabout isn't much better.
Looking at the price tag and the word "junctions" in the name it's surely intended to sort both out. Moor Farm shouldn't be difficult but it'll be interesting to see what is proposed at Seaton Burn. Given NH's recent track record it'll either be magnificent spaghetti or a disappointing fudge - they don't seem to offer much in between for major interchanges!
Yeah that's what I was thinking especially when the short distance between the A1 with Seaton Burn.

Moor Farm is one I'm quite interested in as the main flow is arguably A189(N) to A19(S) rather than A19 to A19 which I'm not sure will be enough without ending up with problems like the A174/A19 junction down in Middlesbrough.
Something like this for Moor Farm?
Screenshot 2022-05-20 183124.jpg
Alternatively, the A19 could be trumpeted off the nice A19-A189 curve, but that would then cause some issues (the same as at Seaton Burn)

And Seaton Burn?
Screenshot 2022-05-20 183109.jpg
The missing movements at Seaton Burn would be catered for by u-turning at the Moor Farm dumbbell
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

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jackal wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 16:47 We do have more protections for bats and hedgehogs than most countries, but I see nothing wrong with that - we are a nation of animal lovers and the cost remains a negligible part of virtually all schemes.
We are also a country in which loss of biodiversity has gone further than most others.
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

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KeithW wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 09:00
the cheesecake man wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 23:32
Rillington wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 15:58 I've also been astounded by the cost of building new transport infrastructure, both for roads and railways as it seems to cost well over £10 million to build even the most basic train stations.

Crossflatts station opened in 1982 and cost £78,000.
Increasing that in line with RPI gives £253,000 in 2016.
Ilkeston station opened in 2016 and cost £10,000,000. :wow:
We no longer build basic train stations, they have to be accessible to the disabled, and have at least some rudimentary shelter and frankly that is a good thing.
It is, but two ramps and two bus shelters ... I'd still call it a basic station. And a ticket machine and a departure screen and CCTV. Maybe a hoop to put a bin bag in. I'm not an expert but I'm still not spotting £9.7m of extra value.
KeithW wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 09:14 and of course the reams of paperwork and studies to decide how the road will impact on the lesser spotted newt and sea gulls doesn't come cheap. You cannot build anything bigger than a garden shed these days without producing an environmental impact statement.
As a French minister once allegedly said "when we build a road in France we just get on with it, we don't ask the frogs". Oops! :oops:
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Re: £40bn roads pipeline unveiled for next 10 years

Post by Herned »

the cheesecake man wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 20:44 It is, but two ramps and two bus shelters ... I'd still call it a basic station. And a ticket machine and a departure screen and CCTV. Maybe a hoop to put a bin bag in. I'm not an expert but I'm still not spotting £9.7m of extra value.
I replied to your question previously, but in case you missed it, the answer is that many of the costs existed previously but were carried by BR as a corporate body, so the figure for the cost of Crossflatts station is significantly under the real cost. Now, because of the way it is run, those costs are accounted for specifically for this station.

Add to that the changes to planning law, access for all, material costs, the way construction grants have to be bid for from some central fund, labour costs through the roof because of the (entirely correct) focus on making sure people don't die at work, and you get some idea why it is all much more expensive
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