A1 Darrington to Redhouse

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6637
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by 6637 »

SouthWest Philip wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 13:21
6637 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 13:03 That'd work fine, though I'd say that you'd probably need to replace it with a new junction on the M18 to serve traffic to places like Conisbrough and New Edlington. The A6182 serves Doncaster but not the places west of the M18.

Doncaster.png
It looks like Warmsworth could bypassed using the old railway line.
Not sure if there's enough need for that, and also on the eastern side of the M18 the former railway line appears to have houses on.
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by Hdeng16 »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:15
KeithW wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:11
Hdeng16 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 09:36

I've been banging this drum for years and years now. Some of the decision making has been utterly mind blowing - stupid and dangerous.

Check this out near Tibshelf...

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1459349 ... 384!8i8192

The original services "Stubs" - plenty of space to get well away from the live lanes, plenty of hard standing for any recovery truck. Nope - block the lot off please. Just insanity.outh
Not so I am afraid, these were stubs built for where Tibshelf Services were expected to be built but it was actually built farther south and they were never used. There is no road access to them. Turning it into refuge would I suppose be possible. However there are a number of equipment cabinets and the like which would complicate matters. Plus there is already a refuge just over a mile north of there.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1478801 ... 312!8i6656
https://motorwayservices.uk/Tibshelf wrote: See also: M1 Service Area Planning

The service area was planned to be a few hundred yards further up the M1. Underneath the Mansfield Road bridge are two ghost slips (partly removed in the 2016 roadworks). These lined up with two more that were removed to build the entry from the current Tibshelf services.

These four ghost slips were built with the M1, and would have allowed a more traditional service area (with straight slip roads) to be built in the field north of the modern Tibshelf services. This was planned to be done when the adjacent two service areas reached full capacity. A total of 19 acres was purchased by the Ministry of Transport for developing into the service area. Some of that land was later sold to develop Willow Court, which makes the original plan harder to imagine.
You can see this quite clearly from the Mansfield Road bridge.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1468717 ... 384!8i8192
I think that was the point being made - that expanse of tarmac could have been another refuge area instead of being physically blocked off and forcing people into live lanes if they come to a stop.

These design choices have all been extremely poor, the public relations even worse. It's no wonder we are now in a situation where a relatively simple method of improving motorway capacity is turning into one of the biggest transport scandals of recent times.
You are correct Bryn, however I believe this guy purposefully misunderstands in order to comment in ways such as "Not so I am afraid" - I guess it makes him feel better.

Anyways....
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by Hdeng16 »

6637 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 13:03
Bryn666 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 11:59 Despite people thinking I somehow hate new roads these days (I don't, I hate induced demand schemes that facilitate more traffic instead of benefitting existing flows), the only online fix for Doncaster is to bite the bullet and demolish J36 entirely. You could perhaps then make an argument that the A6182 provides a better route into the city centre, and spend the money you'd have to coming up with an elaborate J36 to fix the M18 connections to the A6182.

The Don bridge is a cakewalk in comparison.
That'd work fine, though I'd say that you'd probably need to replace it with a new junction on the M18 to serve traffic to places like Conisbrough and New Edlington. The A6182 serves Doncaster but not the places west of the M18.

Doncaster.png
You could probably bypass Edlington like this, but the M18 junction as drawn is on a fair old incline (not that's it would be impossible to build), but your link to the traffic lights at Conisborough is also problematic because the existing B road is pretty steep down to the lights and hemmed in by residential properties.

I like the idea of closing/removing J36 but you'd potentially move even more traffic to J35 so I think you'd probably need the M18/A1M freeflow too.
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by KeithW »

Hdeng16 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 08:53 You are correct Bryn, however I believe this guy purposefully misunderstands in order to comment in ways such as "Not so I am afraid" - I guess it makes him feel better.
Anyways....
Not so I am afraid, I corrected a factual error which I felt was the right thing to do. These were not the original stubs but were built where the services where expected to be.

Certainly you can argue that some use could have been made of the stubs but I also pointed out the problems and likely costs of doing so, at the very least you would need to clear up the mess and given they have been unused for 60 years probably you would have to dig out the whole thing and start again. As there is no other road access, the stubs start in a field, this would be expensive and disruptive. I rather doubt National Highways would think that a good idea but you are of course entitled to your opinion. In fact I would welcome it if you chose to comment on how to do this, here is the view from the overbridge.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1468717 ... 384!8i8192
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by L.J.D »

Just seen that Doncaster is to become a City. I wonder if this happening could have some influence on this whole scheme with Doncaster bypass been done ?
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by Bryn666 »

KeithW wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 09:25
Hdeng16 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 08:53 You are correct Bryn, however I believe this guy purposefully misunderstands in order to comment in ways such as "Not so I am afraid" - I guess it makes him feel better.
Anyways....
Not so I am afraid, I corrected a factual error which I felt was the right thing to do. These were not the original stubs but were built where the services where expected to be.

Certainly you can argue that some use could have been made of the stubs but I also pointed out the problems and likely costs of doing so, at the very least you would need to clear up the mess and given they have been unused for 60 years probably you would have to dig out the whole thing and start again. As there is no other road access, the stubs start in a field, this would be expensive and disruptive. I rather doubt National Highways would think that a good idea but you are of course entitled to your opinion. In fact I would welcome it if you chose to comment on how to do this, here is the view from the overbridge.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1468717 ... 384!8i8192
I am not sure what point you're trying to make Keith - the stumps here are more than adequate to be converted to an Emergency Refuge Area - there's no need to access them from fields or anything else, it could just be done under a simple lane 1 closure and built. The formation will be sound enough to allow a dig off the top surface and lay with modern surface. It's fundamentally no different to the ERA that has been shoehorned in here: https://goo.gl/maps/Jsr6b3e2iH4ZyqsXA
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by Hdeng16 »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 12:15
KeithW wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 09:25
Hdeng16 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 08:53 You are correct Bryn, however I believe this guy purposefully misunderstands in order to comment in ways such as "Not so I am afraid" - I guess it makes him feel better.
Anyways....
Not so I am afraid, I corrected a factual error which I felt was the right thing to do. These were not the original stubs but were built where the services where expected to be.

Certainly you can argue that some use could have been made of the stubs but I also pointed out the problems and likely costs of doing so, at the very least you would need to clear up the mess and given they have been unused for 60 years probably you would have to dig out the whole thing and start again. As there is no other road access, the stubs start in a field, this would be expensive and disruptive. I rather doubt National Highways would think that a good idea but you are of course entitled to your opinion. In fact I would welcome it if you chose to comment on how to do this, here is the view from the overbridge.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1468717 ... 384!8i8192
I am not sure what point you're trying to make Keith - the stumps here are more than adequate to be converted to an Emergency Refuge Area - there's no need to access them from fields or anything else, it could just be done under a simple lane 1 closure and built. The formation will be sound enough to allow a dig off the top surface and lay with modern surface. It's fundamentally no different to the ERA that has been shoehorned in here: https://goo.gl/maps/Jsr6b3e2iH4ZyqsXA
As I said, it's a pointless argument with him, but in response to your own comments - yep, although my point was even simpler. It already was an unofficial ERA... in that it was an accessible area of hardstanding for use in emergency - Go left etc! Certainly not ideal, though I'd argue probably safer than some of the official ERA's.

They could have built an ERA, they could have left it as it was, but instead went out of their way, at cost, to run a barrier along Lane 1.
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by mbeatts »

FYI below from the latest government procurement update:

"A1 Doncaster-to-Darrington improvement scheme has risen in value to £1.3bn, with procurement set to get under way in April 2023, more than a year earlier than expected."
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by thomas417 »

Do we still have no idea of what exactly is being proposed here?
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by NICK 647063 »

thomas417 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 21:51 Do we still have no idea of what exactly is being proposed here?
Not really sure, Darrington to Redhouse will likely be offline leaving the old A1 as a LAR, the bit where it’s complicated is the Doncaster bypass…..

I hope we think big here, the fact is the majority of traffic leaves the A1(M) onto the M18 to pick up the M1 and the A1(M) south of the M18 junction copes fine so this got me thinking…..

I’ve heard this scheme referred to as The Yorkshire Bypass so I think the idea is to take even more traffic off the M1 between Leeds and Sheffield, we know the A1/M18 route is used rather than the M1, so my solution is complete M62 to Redhouse then widen the first section of the Doncaster Bypass then have the mainline leave the existing bypass south of J37 with the new motorway passing west of Sprotbrough, a new bridge over the river Don and a new junction with the A630 near Conisbrough, then it joins into the M18 North of Bramley, this would be a D3M providing a direct route for the main flow and bypassing the existing A1(M)/M18 junction, this would mean the existing A1(M) Doncaster Bypass is left for A1(M) traffic, obviously by removing the M18/A1(M) traffic onto a new road the bypass would cope fine as it does south of the M18 junction……

For me the main thing is to focus on the A1(M) M18 flow as that’s where the bulk is going and the idea I mentioned above makes that route even more direct.
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by KeithW »

Hdeng16 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 08:57
You could probably bypass Edlington like this, but the M18 junction as drawn is on a fair old incline (not that's it would be impossible to build), but your link to the traffic lights at Conisborough is also problematic because the existing B road is pretty steep down to the lights and hemmed in by residential properties.

I like the idea of closing/removing J36 but you'd potentially move even more traffic to J35 so I think you'd probably need the M18/A1M freeflow too.
That needs to happen anyway, the current junction is a major problem especially with the merge onto the A1(M) northbound. As for the incline that is the way the topology is. At the M1 end the altitude of the M18 is 111 meters, at Doncaster its 20 meters.

West of the A1(M) from Warmsworth to Coninsbrough there is a major escarpment north of the Don.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.49634 ... !1e4?hl=en

This can be best seen from the old Railway Viaduct
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.48814 ... !1e4?hl=en
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by KeithW »

NICK 647063 wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 00:03

I’ve heard this scheme referred to as The Yorkshire Bypass so I think the idea is to take even more traffic off the M1 between Leeds and Sheffield, we know the A1/M18 route is used rather than the M1, so my solution is complete M62 to Redhouse then widen the first section of the Doncaster Bypass then have the mainline leave the existing bypass south of J37 with the new motorway passing west of Sprotbrough, a new bridge over the river Don and a new junction with the A630 near Conisbrough, then it joins into the M18 North of Bramley, this would be a D3M providing a direct route for the main flow and bypassing the existing A1(M)/M18 junction, this would mean the existing A1(M) Doncaster Bypass is left for A1(M) traffic, obviously by removing the M18/A1(M) traffic onto a new road the bypass would cope fine as it does south of the M18 junction……

For me the main thing is to focus on the A1(M) M18 flow as that’s where the bulk is going and the idea I mentioned above makes that route even more direct.
The M1 extension to the A1(M) at Hook Moor was built to allow traffic to reach the A1(M) without using the M18, The problem is its increasing overloaded and in any event the traffic levels from the M18 from J36 to the M62 is high.

The M62 is complete, it runs east to North Cave and Hull.

If you are coming over the Pennines from Manchester on the M62 and want to head North its very simple you just turn North at Ferrybridge and its Motorway all the way to Birtley

The problem for the A1 is between Redhouse and J36 and the reality is that building a second Don Bridge and sorting out J36 at Warmsley is the key. The terrain west of the existing A1(M) is difficult and there is a lot of ongoing industrial activity especially quarrying. The best that could be done I think is to pick a line from the Don bridge between Warmsley and Conisbrough to the M18 at Micklebring.

The alternative is what has been discussed here is going to be cheaper and politicaly more acceptable which is at J36 either widen the A1(M) and rebuild the junction which would require some demolition or close the junction entirely.

The physical problem with running between the Don and the A630 is there is a very large and active quarry in the way.

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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by Hdeng16 »

KeithW wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 08:53
Hdeng16 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 08:57
You could probably bypass Edlington like this, but the M18 junction as drawn is on a fair old incline (not that's it would be impossible to build), but your link to the traffic lights at Conisborough is also problematic because the existing B road is pretty steep down to the lights and hemmed in by residential properties.

I like the idea of closing/removing J36 but you'd potentially move even more traffic to J35 so I think you'd probably need the M18/A1M freeflow too.
That needs to happen anyway, the current junction is a major problem especially with the merge onto the A1(M) northbound. As for the incline that is the way the topology is. At the M1 end the altitude of the M18 is 111 meters, at Doncaster its 20 meters.

West of the A1(M) from Warmsworth to Coninsbrough there is a major escarpment north of the Don.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.49634 ... !1e4?hl=en

This can be best seen from the old Railway Viaduct
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.48814 ... !1e4?hl=en
I’m aware of the topology and ride across Conisborough Viaduct most weeks - and under the Don bridge on the TPT.

Thanks for your input though - appreciate your thoughts.
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

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KeithW wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 09:46 ....If you are coming over the Pennines from Manchester on the M62 and want to head North its very simple you just turn North at Ferrybridge and its Motorway all the way to Birtley....
Don't you mean Lofthouse? Or do you enjoy the extra miles and view of the power station?
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by KeithW »

Big L wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 14:33
KeithW wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 09:46 ....If you are coming over the Pennines from Manchester on the M62 and want to head North its very simple you just turn North at Ferrybridge and its Motorway all the way to Birtley....
Don't you mean Lofthouse? Or do you enjoy the extra miles and view of the power station?
It kinda depends on traffic on the day.

The last time I came over the M62 to A1(M) and up to Aberford it was longer at 26 miles but was free flowing. Sure the M1 extension is shorter but it was nose to tail and my satnav was indicating a 30 minute delay. There isnt much of the power station left these days
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by Glenn A »

Using the M1 to reach the A1(M) at Hook Moor, rather than the traditional route via the M18, means you have to pass Sheffield and Leeds, cities with a combined population of well over a million, and the road can be extremely busy at peak times. The M18 route via Doncaster can be less congested as it only passes Rotherham and Doncaster, with much smaller populations, but the A1(M)/ A1 is D2 and the Darrington to Redhouse section is outdated and an accident can cause massive tailbacks.
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by L.J.D »

Big L wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 14:33
KeithW wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 09:46 ....If you are coming over the Pennines from Manchester on the M62 and want to head North its very simple you just turn North at Ferrybridge and its Motorway all the way to Birtley....
Don't you mean Lofthouse? Or do you enjoy the extra miles and view of the power station?
Well if they do they will be massively disappointed because its now all gone :lol: The last of it was demolished in March.
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by KeithW »

thomas417 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 21:51 Do we still have no idea of what exactly is being proposed here?
As I understand it they are working on a number of proposals.
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by KeithW »

L.J.D wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 16:45 Well if they do they will be massively disappointed because its now all gone :lol: The last of it was demolished in March.
To be fair there are 2 new multifuel power stations built in 2016 and 2019 respectively
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.72115 ... 8192?hl=en
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