M32 (J1 aka 19A)

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gepree68
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M32 (J1 aka 19A)

Post by gepree68 »

The following map shows the M32 in Bristol in 1972:

http://groups.msn.com/TheSABRERoadsWebs ... hotoID=675

The odd thing is that M32 J1 is called J19A (presumably because it was a spur off the M4 at J19). And I have a few questions.

1. Why wasn't the junction called J1 right from the start?

2. Was the original idea not to have an M32 at all, and just to dump everyone onto local roads at 19A?

3. Was the road planned to continue south to Bristol with junctions 19B and 19C instead of 2 and 3? And if so, what road number would it have been given? (If it was anything like M4 J9a and J9b, the M32 would probably have been called something like A*(M) rather than a proper M* motorway).

4. Following on from this point, is it true to say that every spur motorway that numbers its junctions by appending a, b, c etc to the junction number of the main motorway where that motorway joins the spur is always an A*(M)-type motorway rather than a proper M* motorway? It seems to me that an M* motorway spur would get its own numbers (1, 2, 3 etc), whereas an A*(M) motorway spur would get 12a, 12b etc.

5. The above map shows the M32 continuing south as far as J2. Was there ever a time when J1 was called 19A, and J2 was open? If so, was it called J2 or something else like 19B (or did it simply not have a junction number?) And was it called the M32 at the time, or something else?

6. I am 90% sure that as recently as the late 1980s or early 1990s, when you travelled *north* on the M32 approaching J1, at least one of the big blue signs announcing the junction showed the junction number as "A19" (in the normal white on black box). Note: not 19A, or 1, but A19. Since then the signs have been replaced and we have the expected junction number 1. Was the "A19" designation a mistake, or could junctions be referred to like this back then?

7. Are there any other examples of a junction number having the letter before the number (e.g. A19)? What about travelling south on the A423(M) just before J9a - what do those signs say? 9A or A9?

8. And (finally) related to the A423(M), I read somewhere that even after the M4 was moved to the south of Reading, the A423(M) still had signs up (in both directions) saying "M4" (which it originally was). Are these misplaced M4 signs still there?

Cheers
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Last edited by gepree68 on Mon May 22, 2017 11:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by gepree68 »

For A423(M) read A404(M) - I was in history mode :)
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Post by Chris5156 »

Geoff: <<Why wasn't the junction called J1 right from the start?>>
From the look of thismap the M32 originally had (or was planned to have) two junctions, one near the top and one terminal one. I suppose it was easier to give it 19A for its only "real" junction rather than its own numbering scheme (like the M26).
<<Was the original idea not to have an M32 at all, and just to dump everyone onto local roads at 19A?>>

Definitely not - look at the map and it's labelled M32 (on two lines, directly above the terminal junction).

<<Was the road planned to continue south to Bristol with junctions 19B and 19C instead of 2 and 3? And if so, what road number would it have been given? (If it was anything like M4 J9a and J9b, the M32 would probably have been called something like A*(M) rather than a proper M* motorway).>>

No idea about the junction numbering - maybe there was a long gap until the last section was built, so until then the "interim" junction 19A was used.

<<Following on from this point, is it true to say that every spur motorway that numbers its junctions by appending a, b, c etc to the junction number of the main motorway where that motorway joins the spur is always an A*(M)-type motorway rather than a proper M* motorway?>>

Er... I'm not sure. What other a, b, c numbered motorways are there? Aside from the A404(M) I can't think of any (short of a few tiny little ones ending at junction xA like the A48(M)). In fact, the A66(M) has no junction number at its end, nor do the A627(M) or A601(M).

<<Are there any other examples of a junction number having the letter before the number (e.g. A19)?>>

I think this was probably a typo or some other misunderstanding or error. Signs are expensive things and the DTp probably decided it could get away with that one!

<<And (finally) related to the A423(M), I read somewhere that even after the M4 was moved to the south of Reading, the A423(M) still had signs up (in both directions) saying "M4" (which it originally was). Are these misplaced M4 signs still there?>>

It sounds about right. Heading southbound, certainly after 9A, it wouldn't matter anyway because it may as well have been the M4. I would think they aren't there any more though, since that bit of motorway was built while "wonky signs" were still the norm, and there's none of those left now.

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Post by c2R »

<<Following on from this point, is it true to say that every spur motorway that numbers its junctions by appending a, b, c etc to the junction number of the main motorway where that motorway joins the spur is always an A*(M)-type motorway rather than a proper M* motorway? It seems to me that an M* motorway spur would get its own numbers (1, 2, 3 etc), whereas an A*(M) motorway spur would get 12a, 12b etc.>>
It seems ludicrous to me that the spurs should use the 12a format of the main motorway, whether the spur itself is numbered, or not... What then would happen if an actual new junction was required after the spur, what would then be done?
It's probably moreacceptable to have the interchanges not numbered at all, particularly if the spur has the number of the "parent" motorway, or it is an Ax(M) number - sections of the A1(M), arguably the most important Ax(M) motorway in the country had no junction numbers for decades!
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Post by M4Simon »

c2R: <<It seems ludicrous to me that the spurs should use the 12a format of the main motorway, whether the spur itself is numbered, or not... What then would happen if an actual new junction was required after the spur, what would then be done?>>
The Heathrow Airport spur is numbered M4 (and signed as such). It's terminal junction is Junction 4A, which is ok because it is part of the M4 motorway!
The problem arose when they built the M25 and needed a new number for the junction with the M4. As junction 4A was already taken, they called it 4B - presumably they will follow this precedent again.
Is 4B the only 'B' junction on the main line of a British motorway?
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Post by gepree68 »

I only know about two 'b' junctions:

1. the one you mentioned M4 J4b (junction with M25)

2. A404(M) J9b (two junctions away from M4 J8/9).

Are there any more?

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Post by stu531 »

drider68:
"I only know about two 'b' junctions..Are there any more?"
There's the Dartford River Crossing numbering where there's a '1B', but then - I think I'm right in saying that this is actually on the A282, so it's not actually a motorway junction.
Then again, there are many A-roads with road numbering (e.g. A14, A55) now - and I'm pretty certain I've seen A-roads with b-numbered junctions. (In fact I wonder if I've seen a 'c')...?
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Post by Gone-but-not-forgotten1 »

Geoff: << The odd thing is that M32 J1 is called J19A (presumably because it was a spur off the M4 at J19). >>

It was a spur built when the section of the M4 was created around Bristol in 1966 (from Junction 28 W of Newport to J19 including the new Severn Bridge). Obviously back then they had plans for a motorway into Bristol as it seems J19 was constructed with no access to local roads as it always has been - just the M32. So they built the small spur to J19A to allow traffic on and off the new M4 until they continued construction east of J19 otherwise it would have been a dead end!!Looking at a map scan of 1966 (unfortunately with no motorway junction numbers) traffic having to come off at "J19A" would goon to small country roads as Geoff mentions, which later became the A4174 ring road - thankfully back then there were not as many cars on the roads as today.
They had also contructed J15 to J17 of the M5 at this point too. It is fascinating to look back at old maps and to see how the roads were then.
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Re: M32 (J1 aka 19A aka A19)

Post by gepree68 »

Apologies for the 15 year delay (!) in replying.

But I have just found out that my memory (from 1970s, 1980s or 1990s) about travelling *north* on M32 between J2 and J1 and seeing that the J1 sign referred to the junction as J19A was actually correct!

I just found this video on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQN-AWfqN4A

And at 19m18s we get the proof that what is today M32 J1 was indeed called J19A (even when travelling northbound):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQN-AWfqN4A&t=19m18s

So at that time was M32 J2 called J19B?

(I have no idea where my memory of junction A19 rather then 19A came from)
Last edited by gepree68 on Thu Feb 09, 2023 19:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: M32 (J1 aka 19A)

Post by Chris Bertram »

Hard to read the number on the sign, but it certainly isn't A4174. It might be A432, but surely that's too far away?
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Re: M32 (J1 aka 19A)

Post by gepree68 »

Chris Bertram wrote:Hard to read the number on the sign, but it certainly isn't A4174. It might be A432, but surely that's too far away?
Yes I think you're right that it says A432 (which is about 1.8 miles away from M32/1). I assume there was no A4174 back then, so they just put the nearest A road on the sign.

But the main thing I am talking about is the junction number, which from the video (and my memory) appears to be "19A" (as opposed to "1" as it is today).
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Re: M32 (J1 aka 19A aka A19)

Post by Chris5156 »

gepree68 wrote:So at that time was M32 J2 called J19B?
Yes, I've seen maps that show 19A and 19B.
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Re: M32 (J1 aka 19A)

Post by DavidBrown »

See to me, as the video gets slightly closer to the sign (just as it goes out of view to the left), I think that it says A407. But looking it up in the Wiki that's over in London with no mention of any use in Bristol or indeed anywhere else.
M32.png
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Re: M32 (J1 aka 19A)

Post by rileyrob »

The 1970 Bartholmew Sheet 7 North Somerset shows J19A meeting a B road. Unfortunately, it has been scribbled over by my younger self, so it's not really worth scanning it.
The undated Dunlop Width of Road map is dual priced, so presumably the same sort of date, and shows an unnumbered M32 with J1 meeting B roads, and a continuation into the city centre, without further junctions.
The 1:10560 dated 1967-9 on old-maps shows J1 built / under construction, with a DC heading east to the B4058. It is conceivable at the time that this was an extension of the nearby B4427.
The 1:10,000 of 1981 shows the A4174 through J1.
However, and perhaps proving that the dating on old-maps is far from reliable, the 1:2500 dated 1989 shows the A407 to the east and the A4174 to the west. I have no idea if this link will work: https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/363495 ... /12/100955 - if it takes you anywhere you'll need to select the right layer and zoom out.
Is this another route for the Wiki? A407 (Bristol)
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From the SABRE Wiki: A407 (Bristol) :


First re-discovered, almost by accident on an old home movie showing a sign at J1 on the M32, the use of the A407 number in Bristol has since been confirmed by a 1970s or 80s 1:2500 Ordnance Survey sheet. On this map, the A4174 is already marked as approaching the junction from the west, with the A407 continuing east on the line of what is now the A4174 through the Hambrook junction. At the current site of the Bromley Heath Roundabout it turns south onto

... Read More
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Re: M32 (J1 aka 19A)

Post by Chris5156 »

I have a 1974 OS 1:50000 that shows A4174 on both sides of the junction. The 1983 edition does not label the A-road to the east, though.
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Re: M32 (J1 aka 19A)

Post by gepree68 »

DavidBrown wrote:See to me, as the video gets slightly closer to the sign (just as it goes out of view to the left), I think that it says A407. But looking it up in the Wiki that's over in London with no mention of any use in Bristol or indeed anywhere else.M32.png
Thanks for the much better picture of the sign.

This confirms that the road is A407, and as this page shows, A407 was indeed in Bristol:

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... _(Bristol)

This page says:
First re-discovered, almost by accident on an old home movie showing a sign at J1 on the M32, the use of the A407 number in Bristol has since been confirmed by a 1970s or 80s 1:2500 Ordnance Survey sheet.

On this map, the A4174 is already marked as approaching the junction from the west, with the A407 continuing east on the line of what is now the A4174 through the Hambrook junction.

At the current site of the Bromley Heath Roundabout it turns south onto the A4017, itself formerly a spur of the A4174.

Sadly at this point the sheets change, and no further trace of the A407 is found, although we can suppose that it continued south on the A4017 route to meet the A432 in Downend.

Whether or not there was the fork that exists today is unclear.
Does anyone know when today's A407 was given its number?

From the SABRE Wiki: A407 %28Bristol%29 :


First re-discovered, almost by accident on an old home movie showing a sign at J1 on the M32, the use of the A407 number in Bristol has since been confirmed by a 1970s or 80s 1:2500 Ordnance Survey sheet. On this map, the A4174 is already marked as approaching the junction from the west, with the A407 continuing east on the line of what is now the A4174 through the Hambrook junction. At the current site of the Bromley Heath Roundabout it turns south onto

... Read More
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Re: M32 (J1 aka 19A)

Post by Steven »

gepree68 wrote:Does anyone know when today's A407 was given its number?
Sheesh, doesn't anyone look at SABRE Maps any more?
:laugh: :laugh:

(1922, BTW).
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Re: M32 (J1 aka 19A)

Post by gepree68 »

So we have learned these things:
  • There were two A407s at the same time: one in Bristol, and one in London. The one in Bristol was eventually renumbered to A4174.
  • M32 junction 1 was originally called M32 junction 19A
  • M32 junction 2 was originally called M32 junction 19B
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Re: M32 (J1 aka 19A)

Post by Steven »

gepree68 wrote:M32 junction 1 was originally called M32 junction 19A
Not quite - it was originally M4 J19A.
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Re: M32 (J1 aka 19A)

Post by gepree68 »

Steven wrote: Tue May 23, 2017 15:00
gepree68 wrote:M32 junction 1 was originally called M32 junction 19A
Not quite - it was originally M4 J19A.
Image

In the 1960s, when M32 J1 and J2 were called J19A and J19B, what was the actual number of the motorway?

For example if you were travelling westbound on today's A4174 to today's M32 J1, what would the sign say was the motorway you would join if you turned left?
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